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Is it me or is it the silk? Working on wrapping rod #2 with silk. I have three coats of spar thinned, to 70/30 and they look fuzzy or there are definite visible wrap lines. Getting frustrated with trying to get it to look good.

I burned off the fuzzies as much as I dared with scorching the silk. Looked clean and smooth before adding the varnish, have tried letting a section  dry  for a couple of days, and just adding a second coat couple of hours after first coat, still doesn't look good to me.  (Peter Van Schaack)

What I do is apply a heavy first coat of varnish, let it soak in. Before it sets up, the varnish is wiped off with a paper towel as the rod is turning. I use Brawny brand towels.  Do a couple of wraps, wipe, then do a few more. Have had no problems with any fuzz from the towel sticking to the wraps. I find that the wraps come out nice and smooth.  (Tony Spezio)

Good silk thread (IE: Pearsalls, or even YLI) shouldn't leave noticeable "fuzzies."  If you definitely have them, it's either due to poor quality thread or a "handling" problem.  If you're thinning 70/30, the consistency of your varnish is very close to that of water, and your wraps will need MANY, MANY more than three coats to look good.  The object of using a thinner is to help the varnish penetrate the fibers of the thread, but very little thinner is needed to change the viscosity enough to accomplish this. Also, once the first two, thinned coats have done their work, you can return to full-formula for the remaining coats.

I always apply two coats a day over a period of at least three days.  Then I allow the varnish to begin curing a little (three more days) before sanding off all those inevitable little imperfections.  This is followed by two more coats of varnish.  Again, the wraps are sanded or steelwooled and then the entire rod is varnished.  It takes time and careful attention to get nice looking wraps, and three coats of thinned varnish JES AIN'T GONNA CUT IT!  (Bill Harms)

I added a full strength coat of varnish - Looking much better!!  (Pete Van Schaack)

You might want to gently sand the wraps when they are good and dry. I use 400 grit on a flat stick. This will flatten out the bumps and dips. Coat again. You think they look good now, they will look even better. I use 3-4 thin coats after the original penetrating coat with sanding in between coats. Just take care not to cut into the thread.  (Doug Easton)

I do not know if this thread is already going, but I need help with this $%&#! silk.  All my experience with wrapping has been with nylon thread, and I am struggling mightily with "fuzzies" and tags.  Hitting the wraps with a lighter doesn't seem to do much.

Now I did experiment with one technique that seemed to work but it might get a little hairy.  I hit a wrap wet with urethane with a lighter and blew out the flame the instant it flamed up.  This seemed to take care of the problem, but will it damage anything?  (Lee Orr)

First trick is to use the best silk you can get, my last rod I tried to skimp pennies on cheap silk and redid with nylon I had left over from another rod. The current rod I'm building I bought Pearsalls silk and no fuzziness. The next trick I learned from the list is don't run it through your fingers to tension, I use a fly tying bobbin, seems to have enough tension. I also use the edge of a credit card to pack the wraps together. The flat edge keeps the thread edge straight.  (Pete Van Schaack)

That's a gutsy technique!

I don't think you'll damage your blank if it's only a quick flash, but if for some reason, it doesn't go out right away, I just have this vision of the dummies that did flaming shots when I used to tend bar.  Like Peter said, use god silk and try to have the thread run off the spool and right on to the rod.  Tension the spool not the thread.  Don't have the thread running through a tensioning mechanism like a set of washers.  The ware on the thread will cause a lot more of "the fuzzies".   And don't use too much tension either, it will also increase the fuzz.

I have not had a problem using the dry singe method. A new single edge razor blade works well for me to trim. Hold the thread out taught and straight from the rod. Position the blade perpendicular to and against the thread right on the wrap. Angle the thread towards the blade while you maintain the tension on the thread against the blade, and the thread should cut cleanly.  Much harder to describe than to do.  Good luck.

FYI: English Angling Trappings now sells Pearsalls Gossamer silk. The 45 meter spools @ $3.00/spool or all 20 spools for $55.00. No interest. I had to get all 20 because their catalog is in black and white...

FYI #2: I miked the Pearsalls when I got it to compare it to the YLI 3/0 I currently use. The Pearsalls was .003" while the YLI 3/0 came in at .0035.  I'd be interested if someone could be more accurate than my cheap calipers.  (Brian Smith)

Rich Margiotta did a thread comparison a while back. What he did was to count the turns of each size that it took to cover 1/2" of rod, I think the results were Gossamer as the  finest then  YLI 3/0, 2/0, Naples, and Gudebrod. You should do a search on it though rather than trust my weak memory.  (John Channer)

I did the same thing a few years back.  The post should titled something like "thread size experiment" or some such.  Can't remember the brands I had then.

John's memory looks about right.  (Jerry Madigan)

You should probably use an optical comparator for measuring nonworking thread and wrapped thread as well.  I don't have one of those dealybobs, though.  (Chris Lucker)

Fuzzies don't really matter, you're going to cover them with enough coats of varnish to smooth the wrap out anyway. What's more important to the final look of the wrap is getting the threads all to lay snugly against one another with no gaps or color striations, which can prove to be much harder than it sounds, a perfect looking dry wrap can turn into your worst nightmare when the second or third coat of varnish dries (they always look fine after the first coat).  (John Channer)

(Nick Kingston)

I'm trying to get away from the dreaded  'fuzzies'.  I'm spending more time dealing with the fuzz than wrapping and  varnishing.  What's your experience with CT or YLI?  (Ed Berg)

Don't know about CT, 'cause I've never used it.  But I've been wrapping with YLI (both sizes) for several years now, and have had no difficulties.  For me, most of the "fuzzies" have come from too much tension on the thread, causing me to work too hard with the burnishing stage in order to pack properly.  Relax the whole process, and you'll have better results.

But another thing I've discovered is that ultimately the fuzzies don't matter.  After you've applied, say, five or six coats, you let the wraps begin to cure for a few days and then simply sand the flats (800-1200 wet-or-dry).  All the problems disappear, and then you just apply a couple more light coats.   (Bill Harms)

I've used only YLI and have never had a problem with fuzzies.  Your problem may be the tensioner you're using.  I use the cheapest rod wrapping system I've seen.  It's a C-clamp in which the handle was replaced with a machine screw.  A couple of plastic washers and a nylon cored wing-nut provide tension by putting pressure on the ends of the spool itself, so there's nothing touching the thread at all.  I wind the thread directly form the spool onto the rod, without going through any guides or tensioners.

Most of the fuzzies I've ever seen are from flaws in the thread.  In those cases there's a big gob of loose fibers, and the only thing to do is remove the wrap and redo it.  The only other time's I've encountered fuzzies resulted from trying to tease apart crossed wraps due to my own lack of care in wrapping.  Again, the solution has been to remove the wrap and do it over. (Robert Kope)

Thanks for all the info.  Sounds like:

1. Back off on the tension and apply it directly to the  spool 

2. Avoid contact with anything between the spool and the rod  

3. Bury the little buggers in varnish  and sand  them off.  (Ed Berg)

Are there people who use YLI silk for wrapping their guides?? and what are your experiences with it.

I've seen wraps made with Pearsalls silk and I like these very much because when you use a lighter color it become a little transparent. What is your advise about YLI silk before I buy it. Else I go looking for a Pearsalls supplier.    (Jaco Pronk)

Golden Witch is one suppler both brands. Both are very good and have their devotees. (Timothy Troester)

I like YLI better than Pearsalls. YLI flattens when you burnish it and seems to be easier to get the winds tight to each other, I have much more trouble with light and dark bands in wraps done with gossamer than YLI size 100.  (John Channer)

I did a search on the archives and did not come up with anything. I am wondering if anyone has ordered thread from Red Rock Threads.  I'm looking at the YLI thread.  The price is right and they claim free shipping.  They also carry the 50 wt Tire thread.  Any feedback would be greatly appreciated.  (Garrett Scott)

I found this company also a few weeks ago and ordered a spool of YLI. Shipped immediately (free) and arrived from NV in about 3 days.  Very pleased. Especially to not get hit on $6.00 shipping for a $4.50 item.  I'd have no problem recommending them.  I've actually enjoyed the YLI thus far (I've been using Pearsalls exclusively) I may begin experimenting w/ a few others of their threads, and for the price it can't be beat.  (Matthew Leiderman)

I've purchased YLI from Red Rock for that past 3 rods.  Quick delivery.  Great price.  Excellent thread.  Someone posted a comparison of various wrapping threads last year (I think).  The density of YLI 100 was somewhere between Gossamer and Naples as I recall.  Might find that post in the archives.  (David Bolin)

Where is everyone buying their thread from and why?  I have only used gossamer so I would be interested in opinions on other threads as well.  (Ralph Tuttle)

I use YLI that I buy locally at a sewing store.  I also buy some Gossamer that I buy at Little River Outfitters.  You can find them online I think.  (Hal Manas)

Try http://www.pipers-silks.com/  (Paul Blakley)

Thanks for the link.  However, I have never been 'into' needlepoint or tatting so I am a little lost since none of the information charts have a 'suitable for' category for fly rod wraps.  Would you like to enlighten me as to which type yarn of theirs that you use?   (Ralph Tuttle)

If you send 'Pipers' a sample they will color match and size match exactly what you want. If you tell them for example you want 'Gossamer' size then Gossamer size you will get. That said I have a rod restoration friend who uses 90/2 for rings,90 floss for intermediates and 90/3 for ferrules all supplied as 'Cops' which is circa a 75 yard spool.  (Paul Blakley)

I am looking for a silk thread that gets mustard colored after application of spar varnish. No color preserver. Any recommendations?  (Tom Simarud)

Would that be brown or yellow mustard? Or speckled like Grey Poupon?  (Will Price)

I understand I have to be more precise..

What I am after is a yellow color with a hint of olive. And all this after the wrap has been varnished!

Antique gold is too brown and doesn't have the olive.  (Tom Simarud)

Sounds like a good time for some color preserver experiments.  (Harry Boyd)

Color preserver doesn't bond good enough to the blank, otherwise that would have been the solution. I have sent an email to Golden Witch..

Maybe Darrol solution with tinting the yellow thread with Primacolor artist's marker?  (Tom Simarud)

Gudebrod has a NCP color that would be good.  If you can't find the number, I will check when I'm home.  (Scott Grady)

Has anyone had experience with silk from Tire brand?  I was in The Big City last week (OK, Edmonton Alberta - not that large, but larger than Whitehorse) and trolled through some quilting, fabric and Couture shops and came across the above brand of silk.  I guess I looked like an anomaly in those stores, but that's another story.  I came away with a few sample colors to sample both weight and color under varnish.

The spools were in a display with the "Fujix Ltd." of Japan brand on it (as did the color sample chart they had), although it also seems to be sold as "Clover" brand - at least the color numbers of Clover seem to match those that I have.  I think I have the 50-weight - the labeling is primarily in Japanese script.  The only English shows "TIRE Sewing Thread" at one end of the spool and "100% Silk", "100m" the lot number and the color reference number on the other end.  I think this is their "50" thickness.

The thread seems to be a little thicker than Pearsalls Naples.

I was wondering if anyone has used this threads and, if you have, what you think of it?  (Greg Dawson)

I've used it a couple times and it is of very good quality with a nice, tight weave and few fuzzies.  It was size 50 and heaver than I like so I don't use it much any more, but it is good thread if you like heavier silk.

If I remember correctly, Jeff Wagner sells Tire silk.  (Chris Carlin)

I've used Clover/Tire, which I imagine is the same stuff. I like it a lot and have it in several colors that I use now and then. It's typically size 50, but I think thinness in thread is much overrated anyway.  (John Channer)

I used some TIRE Clover brand thread once that was a nice green that I wanted.  It worked quite well.  (Hal Manas)

I need a good source for Pearsall's gossamer.  (Tom Key)

Bellingers among others.  $2.50 a spool for more than 12.  (Wayne Thompson)

I forgot to mention I'd like to try my hand at achieving clear wraps (it looks really cool) - any tips?  What color thread - I didn't see the color "clear listed.  (Tom Key)

Use the white thread to get a clear wrap, no C-P.  (Henry Mitchell)

This is not quite as simple as it looks. Two important things.

1. Use spar varnish thinned way out to start your finishing (no polyurethane)..

2. Do not brush in the first coats. Completely soak the silk using a toothpick or bodkin to put on the varnish. Bubbles will give your wrap a "frosty" look.

There are some other methods using epoxy which give beautiful results. Check the tips site for discussions.  (Doug Easton)

I've found that not all makes and spools of white silk give as clear a wrap as you might like. Check them out on a dowel or something before committing.  (Bill Fink)

I got mine off eBay.  (Joe Hudock)

Considering that the great Masters of the past never used Gossamer, Why today there are this love for the Gossamer?  How start this trend? In my young years the use of Pearsalls Gossamer was only for building flies and for the embroideries made by ladies.  (Marco Giardina)

Just take a look at a rod wrapped with it and you'll get your answer. Properly wrapped and varnished the small diameter thread blends together almost seamlessly and give the appearance that the wrap was actually poured on as one seamless layer. They pack tight and lay almost flat without the bumpy appearance even when a minimum of varnish layers are used. And if you start wrapping with Gossamer you never miss the bigger stuff. I rarely have thread break and because Pearsalls uses very long filaments you get less fuzz. Try it you may love it. (Larry Puckett)

I'm with my friend Marco on this one.  While gossamer thread makes a beautiful wrap, so do larger threads.  I suppose you could measure a few clear wraps and possibly determine which ones were gossamer, and which were size A.  But I'm not so sure you could tell only by looking.  Let's play a game:

What size is this thread? 

How 'bout this?

Or this?

I keep pretty good records.

The first is white Gossamer. Second is old size 00 Gudebrod natural, not white silk.  Not sure how old, but old enough to come on wooden spools. Third is older still size 0 Gubebrod silk that's just barely off white.

The older Gudebrod silks in 0 and 00, and even in size A, are my current favorites.  Got a spool or two of old Gudebrod silk on the wooden spools that you want to let go?  Drop me a note.  (Harry Boyd)

The true test would be to put them in a side by side comparison - ie, the same picture.  Were those three pictures all taken at the same time, with the same amount of light, from the same angle, the same resolution, and with the same camera?  The first one has the focus on the agate guide, and the wrap itself is quite out of focus.  The third one is taken from a greater distance than the first, and the second one from further away yet.  Kinda difficult to make a decent comparison between the three that way.  (Mark Wendt)

Kinda hard to re-photograph those rods Mark! <g>  Only two of the three are still here.  In a few weeks at SRG maybe we'll play "Guess what thread this is" as part of my rod wrapping demonstration.  (Harry Boyd)

That might be kinda fun!  Glad you volunteered, my friend!  I'll set out some of my rods too, all of which are wrapped with Gossamer.  (Mark Wendt)

I'm not going to argue with Harry, I've learned more from him than all others put together. Back in the monkey days I did some graphite rods using Gudebroad nylon or whatever it is and covered it with epoxy and it came out OK. However when I went to wrapping cane I started with Gossamer and have stuck with it. Maybe one day I'll buy some larger stuff and give it a try but right now I have a system that works for me on a regular basis. I think we all know that there are a lot of things done these days that are basically the "new traditions" that may not be what the "old traditions" really were and heaven only knows how they got started.  (Larry Puckett)

"beauty is in the eye of the beholder, Johann Wolfgang Goethe"

I start my rodmaking adventure using Pearsalls Gossamer and I have made a good number of rods with this type of silk, probably under the influence of the Cattanach book.

But after same years, I realized that wrapping with Gossammer is more a Zen exercise then a wrapping necessity.  I switched to YLI and the aesthetic results are not changed, but the time table of the works is certainly changed.

Today I am arrived to the same conclusions of Harry Boyd - Hello Harry! - and I use the 0 and 00 silk, old stocks.

By the way, during the last Italian Gathering I had the opportunity and the privilege to admire the rods made by the Boo Boys an in particular a rod made by Tom Morgan Rodsmith: large size threads, but really a sublime work!   (Marco Giardina)

Does anyone have a link to what the various colors of Gossamer look like wrapped with varnish applied?  (Matt Fuller)

On a flamed rod or blond?  (Dan Zimmerlin)

Good point.  I would like to see either or both.  (Matt Fuller)

I believe Russ Gooding has charts for both Gossamer and Naples as well as the YLI colors.  (John Channer)

With or without CP -- makes a big difference!  (Larry Puckett)

I don't think you can rely on colors viewed on a computer monitor. There is too much variation from one monitor to the next on how they render particular shades.  And we are dealing with pretty subtle differences in shades here.

If you have a graphics card & monitor optimized for this kind of work maybe its possible.  I'm sure someone with a photography background could explain it better.  (Frank Stetzer)

Yeah I had seen that but I was hoping someone might have a sample stick photographed.  One that had varnish on the wraps.  (Matt Fuller)

As I asked in an earlier message -- with or without CP it makes a big difference! CP done right (and if you're real lucky) looks just like the original colors in the catalog. The color you get without CP will differ depending on the color of the underlying cane, the color of the varnish, and  the type of varnish used. There are just too many variables for that one. I made up my own color stick by wrapping short sections of garden stakes with a few different pairs of Gossamer silk and then treating them with and without CP and MOW. So get out the silk you are interested in and give it a whirl, that's about the only way you're going to really be able to see what it will look like under your own conditions.  (Larry Puckett)

Chris Carlin did an interesting comparison on various ways to preserve the colors of gossamer silk on the Rod Building Forum.  Here's the link.   (Ken Paterson)

So I know silk shrinks when it dries after getting wet. Does anyone know if it shrinks as varnish dries?  I have been using Gossamer Silk and some YLI 100 but am frustrated by fine gaps that appear after the varnish dries when I would bet my mother in law's shoes that the wraps were snug and gapless before varnishing them.  I'm about ready to try some nylon, but want to keep the translucent effect.  (Pete Bates)

I had similar problems with both nylon and silk. The problem seems to revolve around tension and packing. On my most recent rod the wraps came out almost perfect using just enough tension so that when I let go of the rod while wrapping it rotates back just one flat and packing the threads about every 10 turns. Light, gentle burnishing after the wrap is finished completes the process. (Jim Healy)

I know that you can have this particular problem if you wrap too tight. (Timothy Troester)

Do you lightly "singe" the wraps to remove silk fuzz and tighten the wrap before applying varnish ?  If not you might try  using only an alcohol lamp (as it makes no "smoke" that can blacken your wrap); by holding the wrapped rod above the blue flame and slowly rotating the rod it will smooth the wrap and remove the silk thread fuzz  - give it a try as it works for me, but do it carefully and slowly. If you can not touch the wrap with your fingers you got the wrap too hot. (Frank Paul)

Just a note that nylon will also go translucent (and transparent if white or natural thread is used) by the same means.  But silk colors tend to retain a kind of 'glow' somewhat lacking in nylons, but that's just my opinion and I'm kind of crazy.  (Bob Brockett)

If you're wrapping over varnish the little buggers nestle into self made grooves  in it and are almost impossible to burnish together.  (Art Port)

I have wrapped a few rods, and just finished my first bamboo blank with Pearsalls Naples silk.  It was a challenge to say the least. I was wondering what the majority of you use as far as thread size and type. Does the Gudebrod size A look significantly different than Naples once you are finished?  (Scot Lewis)

I started with Pearsalls, went to Gudebrod's and ended up going back to the Pearsalls.

I found that even though the Gudebrod's was easier to work with in the beginning, the overall look to the Pearsalls was much, much nicer.

I find that the transparency of the threads, once varnished, was also much nicer looking; it also lies flatter.

May I suggest that you make yourself a "wrap stick" with different colors of both type threads and see which you find more pleasing to your eye. I did not do this in the beginning because I was hung up on using the colors of my family's "Coat of Arms" colors...well I made the damn stick, put my ego aside and since that time, have come up with a color combination that I truly admire.  (Ren Monllor)

Gudebrod "A" thread leaves a thick wrap, I prefer not to use it. I was using Pearsalls but my  yes are not that good anymore. I have gone to YLI, it is about 2/0 size. I find it pleasing to the eye and translucent with Helmsman varnish.  (Tony Spezio)

I have seen Tony's work and it is quite nice. It is one of the reasons that I mostly use YLI-100 silk. If they made small diameter nylon, I'd use it. I find nylon easier to start, wrap, and pack than silk, but size A looks like rope after using silk. The smaller the diameter, the more translucent the wraps will be, simply because there is less thread blocking the light. I have mostly made peace with silk. I lick the first few inches before starting the wrap and that has helped get me back to single turn starts; I finally have my tension set right so I don't get huge color variations; and I have gotten enough magnification for my old eyes so that I can see the thread going on.

Danville does make 6/0 nylon, but the color selection is limited and you have to order a box from Danville to get the unwaxed thread... but they do have fluorescent colors.  (Larry Lohkamp)

How was it a challenge?  Just curious.  I do 99.9999% of my wraps with Pearsalls Gossamer, and for the first time, I have two rods on the wrapping bench that I'm using Naples on.  I find the thread to wrap quite easy.  What difficulties are you having with the thread?  (Mark Wendt)

Maybe just inexperience on my part, but the thread kept crossing over itself, was hard to count wraps, and if the transition between ferrule or guide was not perfect gaps occurred.  (Scot Lewis)

Ah, I understand now.  Yes, you do have to be a little more careful using Naples and  Gossamer if you're not used to them.  The threads being skinnier than most of the others, and having a smoother finish to boot, do tend to do those things to the unaware.  I gave up counting wraps a long time ago, hence my post a few weeks back about the squirrel. Gossamer and Naples are just too damn fine of a thread to count wraps if your memory sucks like mine.  I use a machinist scale, and measure the wrap length on either the 1/32" or 1/64" scale.  That way the only thing I need to remember is the wrap length, not whether I had 45 or 55 wrap turns...  (Mark Wendt)

Pearsalls makes three grades of silk, Marabou, Naples and Gossamer.  Insofar as I am able to find out, YLI make 2 - their #50 and #100.

The #100 seems to me to be about equivalent to Pearsalls' Naples, the #50 quite a lot thicker.

Gossamer, at least of the silks that are available to me, is in a class of its own - the finest I can get, in fact.

What is difficult about wrapping Naples? Is it that you are having difficulty in packing your wraps up close, or that you are breaking it, or getting dirty colors or mottled colors or what.

If any of the above is the problem, the "fix" (one man's fix may turn out to be another man's disaster) may well be as simple as (a) wearing some magnifying spectacles, making sure that they are comfortable, convenient and have a decent eye relief distance and (b) reducing your thread tension, sometimes quite a lot.  I am continually amazed at the tension some builders use on their silk.  You don't need much.

Also helps a lot, IMHO, if you use a tensioner that does not have the thread running through a device that puts direct pressure on the thread itself.  This seems to me to be especially important with the finer silks.

You need to give your tensioner a bit of thought to ensure that it can be set where you want it to be, and so that it does not readjust itself when the spool turns.

Between my adjusting wing nut and the teflon washer that sits against the spool, for example, I Place an approx 3"  diameter ring of light spring steel, drilled so that it sits in contact with the washer and the nut  and so that any increase in tension that is applied at the screw is transmitted to the spool via the lateral squeezing of the ring.  This tames the acuity of the screw adjustment and in my hands at any rate, makes finer adjustments possible.  (Peter McKean)

I had a lot of trouble wrapping my first two rods with silk.  The key for me was that on my first two rods, I had dip varnished the rod before wrapping.  On the third and subsequent rods, I have wrapped unvarnished blanks.  Made all the difference in moving the silk around to where I wanted it to start and to pack the wraps.

Just another factor.  (Dan Zimmerlin)

So far, I have used Persall's Gossamer on all the rods I have built, including the one I am trying to finish now. I started my wraps with a partial spool and when I switched to a full spool, I noticed a difference in the size of the thread. I check the thread with my calipers and the first spool, the thread was .003 and the new spool was .004. Not much of a difference but when you put the same number of wraps on each guide, the .001 can make a significant difference. Just curious if I made the mistake of starting a partial spool instead of a full spool or if this is common among most threads? (John Smith)

If you talk to people, like my mother, who do what is called "needle craft" you will find that a critical component of consistency is the dye lot.  No two dye lots of the same color are ever quite the same, so you never mix dye lots in a project.  If you purchased 6 spools of thread, at the same time, the chances are that they came from the same dye lot.  If, however, you purchased your spools of thread a year or two apart, then thre's little chance of getting the same dye lot.

As for the diameter of the thread, I suspect that it's much the same.  Different batches of silk spin up differently, resulting in minor variations in fine-ness of the finished product.  As you suspected, the only fix for your problem is to wrap the rod with the same batch of thread.

Myself, I wind my guides by measurement, not by turns, so I could compensate for the thickness variation.  For color variations, if you don't use 2 different spools on the same guide, it probably won't be noticeable. (Paul Gruver)

Thanks Paul. I actually bought the two spools of red thread together and I can't see any variation in color.  (John Smith)

Pearsall's Gossamer has wonderful colors, but those little spools are a real pain.  Why?

Because they hold little thread making it so easy to run out of thread in the middle of a wrapping job.  YLI and Kimono (and other brands) market silk thread that is almost as fine as Gossamer and the larger spools hold 220 yards of thread.  So, compared with Pearsall's, you have about 4.5 times as much thread of one dye lot and size on a single spool. (Tim Anderson)

Thanks Tim, I did not know that. I will definitely keep that in mind when ordering thread again. (John Smith)

Plenty of rod makers use Gossamer, though I am not one.  Several years ago when Goldenwitch was starting up Russ Gooding promoted Gossamer quite heavily and many of us (me included) followed like sheep, never questioning or debating its efficacy.  Because Gossamer is smaller thread it lays closer to the rod blank.  As a smaller thread, fewer coats of finish are required to fill the spaces between threads resulting in a nice level finish.  A five turn tipping wrap is smaller than even three turns of larger threads, and many folks bought the idea that tiny little tipping wraps looked best.  Several of the colors look really nice.  The Java Beige color is fairly close the the color used by Payne and looks great on a bamboo rod.  Some folks like the Hunt color, though it just plain looks pink to me.  Pearsalls offered jasper threads in some colors which had become quite hard to find in larger threads.

On the other hand, none of the classic rod companies used thread as small as Gossamer.  Payne and Leonard used Size A and size 00 and size 0, as did Garrison.  Something makes me think Garrison used even larger (size D?) threads for the ferrule tab windings, though I don't remember for sure.   Classic rod makers used threads from Belding Corticelli, Gudebrod, Elephant, and other companies.  Color preserver was used far more often than not.  Several of the later Leonard colors where actually nylon.  Silk was much more common in the sewing world then than now and thus easier to find than the "modern, space-age nylon."

Logical thinking suggests that larger thread is stronger.  It's certainly faster and easier to use.  Though it takes an extra coat or two of varnish to fill the valleys of the thread when using varnish to finish the wraps, with thicker polymer wrap coatings are used no more than two coats are required.  Tipping wraps can be made with three turns of Size A or 00 thread instead of five turns of Gossamer, or even five turns of Size 100.  When the rod is complete, very few people can tell what thread was actually used, and even fewer will notice unless it is pointed out.

I wrap after two coats of varnish have been applied via dipping, sanding between coats.  Gossamer thread is so small it bites into the varnish at the corners and will not pack or burnish easily.  Larger threads are less apt to suffer from that drawback to my way of doing things. (Harry Boyd)

In my state of applied lycanthropy, is that I find Gossamer to be a very difficult thread with which to work, and that I have moved away from it and now use YLI threads in size 100. The dyelot thing is a problem with all types, but I agree with the person who said that the difference ought not be noticeable unless you use one dyelot immediately adjacent to a different lot.

Having said that, Gossamer is doubtless a superb thread, possibly the best of all, and used with great success by those who can handle it. However, I am not lucky enough to be one of those.

I do use it, however, in fly tying, where it is a great thread in very small flies!  (Peter McKean)

There be none quite so mad
The Mad Hatter said
As to bind a cane rod
With Gossamer thread! 

I am now getting old
And my vision is past it;
My opinion of Gossamer
Is that it's a bastard! 

If, to achieve neatness
Should be my fond hope,
I have lots more success
With medium rope! 

I apologise for the profanity, but couldn't find anything else that would fit the rhyme. (Peter McKean)

Oh Peter when we first met
My understanding was that you were a vet
A rod maker of skill to behold
However, a little grumpy, so I was told
But now a new direction it is clear
A poet of some note, in salute I lift my beer. (Graham Foxman)

In the context of insanity
we can forgive the profanity
Of using the word 'bastard'
When there's nought to surpass it. (Stephen Dugmore)

There once was a vet from Tasmania
Gossamer thread was his mania
It came to his head
That a change of his thread
To A weight would cure his insania.  (Bill Lamberson)

Have any of you had success with Fish Hawk silk thread? I am stuggling with this stuff. It is gappy and wirey, generally hard to work with and looks like hell. I thought I might be just having a bad day and tried different silk. No, it's not just me. I'll not use it again. (Timothy Troester)

I have been using Fish Hawk for a couple of years. Pack it and burnish. Also I use a lighter to burn the fuzzies off before varnishing.  (Gordon Koppin)

I tried using a lighter once to burn off the fuzzies. It got rid of the fuzzies but burned through the wrap. Is there some trick to using the lighter?

Maybe I just can't handle lighters. I used one once to heat the ferrules when gluing them on to help with the air pocket problem. It sure helped get the ferrule seated but the epoxy glue joint failed. Must have been too much heat. Again, it must call for a deft touch that I cannot get a handle on. The only thing I have any success with using a lighter is just starting fires. I used to use a lighter a lot more when I smoked but gave that up 25 years ago. Still miss 'em. (Joe Hudock)

We are changing the subject a little here, but you can't use butane lighters (or zippos for that matter). They burn way too hot and you have less control because you are keeping one hand on the lighter. You can purchase a decent alcohol lamp for very little money ( I think I paid $10). Alcohol burns soft and clean. Just make sure you are using a good lamp with a wide base to prevent it from being tipped over. Practice wrapping on some scrap strips first. Hold the wraps above the flame, not in it. Start high enough above the flame and slowly bring it closer just to the point that the fuzzies disappear, and don't get it any closer. Use reading glasses or some sort of magnification if you need to see better. Same thing with the ferrules. You want it warmed up, but there is no need to get it fire hot. Rotate it in and out of the flame quickly just to the point that it is almost too hot to touch and stop right there. Practice, practice, practice before doing it on the blank that you have labored over or spent hard money on. (Scott Bearden)

Another option would be to dip a q-tip in alcohol and use it to burn away the fuzzies. (John Smith)

I will vote for a bubble buster or sometimes called an alcohol torch, you can get a pinpoint flame that is easier to control. I have also found that denatured alcohol burns cleaner than isopropyl.

Seems like a lighter will also give you some black smoke on the wraps if you aren’t careful.  (Gary Jones)

I think I forgot to mention denatured vs isopropyl. The drug store stuff (isopropyl) is 10% water and more expensive by volume than denatured alcohol bought at the hardware store. And there are lots of good uses for it, such as degreasing planing forms, prepping blanks prior to varnishing, and on and on. It is great for cleanup as well when it comes to glues.  (Scott Bearden)

Another option might be Everclear. If you live in a state that allows you buy the 190 proof 95% ethanol stuff, it might be cheaper and easier to get than denatured alcohol. It beats having to drive whatever distance to go to a hardware store when a liquor store is closer. Beware some states only allow you to buy the sissy 75% 151 proof stuff, like NY.  Since 95.6% alcohol and 4.4% water form an azeotrope (meaning that simple distillation cannot remove any of the remaining water), the 190 proof is the strongest. I'm not sure denatured would be any purer than the Everclear.  Other brands are Gem Clear and Golden Grain. One shot for the rodmaker. One for the rod. Two shots for the rodmaker, one for the rod. Three shots for the rodmaker, one for the rod...what were we making here again? ;-)  (Eric Wolfsbane)

I used Fish Hawk silk thread for the latest seven rods, I not have had any problems and I thought it was a great product. (Alberto Poratelli)

I always heard that fishhawk was just repackaged YLI.  Use YLI, Kimono, Tire, and Pearsalls.

Coincidently, I am finishing a spinning rod and wanted a bit stronger thread for the single footed guides so I dug into my stash from the plastic days in the early 90s and found a nice color of Gudebrod nylon.  That stuff was much easier to wrap than silk.  Seems that the stretchiness of the nylon makes it easier to lay down very even.  Silk just does not have that stretchy characteristic but the the Tire #50 wraps very nice and is the most comparable to the old Gudebrod.   (Gary Young)

Well, after everone's testimonials I am willing to admit it might be me. This spool does seem different to me though. I turned 60 a couple of weeks ago and I'm still a little pissed about it so maybe it's me that's not being stretchy enough, eh?   (Timothy Troester)

I've been reading comparison charts for sewing thread sizes in an attempt to understand silk sizes. The trouble is the more I read the less I understand. I'm about to buy some silk spools from a shop called Olivers of Knebworth.

He has silks in two sizes 80/3 and 200/2, can anyone tell me how these sizes compare with the 6/0 Pearsalls gossamer I'm used to.

He tells me the 200/2 is very fine and needs to be used carefully. (Simon Reilly)

WARNING- Obfuscation may occur, do not read without having your morning coffee.

According to my wife 200/2 means size 200 two strand thread while 80/3 would be an 80 weight 3 strand thread. The weights of most silk sewing thread are 100 or50 wt.  

Fifty is a bit heavier than what most rod makers want on trout rods, and 100 wt. is what many of us older rod makers think is just fine. A popular thread is YLI brand 100 wt. I am not sure how many strands there are in the YLI threads. The weight designation is: wt. = number of meters that 1 gram of thread contains. One 1 gram of 200 wt. thread would be 200 meters long. Usually the strand number is given only so that the person will have some idea of the character of the thread.  Here is a link to a PDF file discussing all the various designations of sewing threads.

Pearsall’s gossamer is smaller than 100 wt. but I don’t think it is as fine as 200 wt. Pearsall’s is for wrapping classic flies. I don’t think many people would sew with it. Pearsall’s is 6/0 silk thread, which if it equivalent other 6/0 tying threads would be 70-100 Denier. One Denier= the weight of 9000 meters of thread. Really one must compare threads of the same material because Denier doesn’t really relate to diameter it relates to weight.

It is difficult to compare threads except to work with them or measure them. Measuring is really near impossible with a caliper, so optical means could be used but lacking any data about the material (strength etc.) is not very useful. I do believe that a member of this list made some comparisons of silk treads commonly used for rod wrapping. Unfortunately, I have lost the file.

Bottom line: I would ask for a 5 or 10” sample of each weight. (Doug Easton)

Thank you Doug, and thanks for the link. No obfuscation in your reply, you have told me exactly what I needed to know.
The 200 is finer than the Pearsalls I'm used to and the 80 is thicker. I can order with confidence now. (Simon Reilly)

I want to add one more thing on Pearsall’s Gossamer. I was going through some information I have on threads and came across the claim from Pearsall that  their Gossamer is 8/0 and 126 Denier (an article on fly tying threads mentioned that Gossamer was 6/0). They also claim that it is 8 ply which may be based on a different way that they make their thread from raw silk fibers than sewing threads are made. Again, much of the decision on which threads to use for a given application is going to have to be based on experience with the material. (Doug Easton)

Pearsall makes claims for their thread that just don't stand up to close inspection.   Gossamer is, at best, 4/0.  It is MUCH thicker than the antique spool of Gudbrod 6/0 silk I have from about 1969. 

Don't get me wrong, Pearsall's gossamer is a good product, and I like it for tying softhackle flies, but their claims for thinness challenge credulity. (Paul Gruver)

I would like to make several 'general' comments relative to the various replies posted below.

"Gossamer is... much thicker than Gudebrod 6/0 silk...".

This is to be expected under the "ought" sizing system for silk; 3/0 is thicker than 4/0 which is thicker than 8/0. Under this system, as the number of "oughts" increases, the diameter decreases. The whole numbers signify the number of zeros ("oughts") in the sequence.

The use of Denier for sizing silk thread is a grossly erroneous use of this term. It is a term coined specifically for Synthetic fibers! Ironically, the basis for Denier is actually based on the historic 'ought' system for sizing silk.

Relative to comparing diameters, rather than trying to use calipers or a micrometer, which is VERY difficult to do; simply make uniform wraps over a 'fixed' distance on a lead pencil or a piece of dowel, and count the number of threads over that distance. That will give you a 'good enough for government work' diameter (the number of wraps divided into the distance; e.g., 5 wraps over 1/4 inch X 4 = 20/inch; therefore the diameter is 1/20 inch).
 
It is a shame that thread sizing system has to be as complicated as it is, and, to add insult to injury, there is still a separate system for sizing threads and twines made from natural products, such as wool, etc.

I hope I have not further "muddied' the waters! (Frank Schlicht)

Frank, that is a wonderful tip, I've been meaning to wrap a series of colours on an old blank section anyway. Now I will be careful about the length of the wraps and get the measure I need.  (Simon Reilly)

I just finished up my first rod and wrapped with Pearsall’s Gossamer.  I found the Gossamer a bit to fine (difficult to work with) for the ferrules but just about right for the snakes on the tip sections.

A few questions-

What threads do you folks use for your rods- Brand, Diameter?

Do you use different diameter threads for different applications, such as wrapping ferrules, stripping guides or snake guides?  (Steve Donaldson)

I have always used a thicker and different complementary color on my signature wraps and on the ferrules. Just seem the right thing to do!  (Joe Arguello)

I use YLI #100 (126 denier).  It's a bit heavier than Gossamer, not much, but I do find it easier to work with and it's definitely stronger, if that's a concern.  I'll paste something here from the Tips page showing how some of the better known brands and weights fair over a half inch wrap:

You can see the modest decrease in wrap numbers going from Gossamer to YLI 100wt, but the difference is noticeable, believe me.  Surprising to me how much heavier the Naples is.  I bought some several years ago and have yet to try.  BTW, YLI sells or used to sell display cards that have actual 1 inch wraps of every #100 color they offer.  I got one and applied slightly cut spar varnish to 1/2 of each wrap so I could have a permanent sample of the before and after.  In some colors, the change is slight; in others, very marked.  Hope this helps. (Bob Brockett)

I've been using FishHawk silk for a couple of years now and really like it because it wraps very well, doesn't need a color preserver and goes nicely translucent with varnish, BUT, when I want a color that one of the very few silk dealers doesn't have, getting the color can take weeks - a month in the current case.  So, I'm looking for alternatives. 

I've tried Pearsall's and found it no fun at all to wrap with and had a really bad experience with the color preserver recommended.  I wound up cutting off all the wraps and rewrapping with FishHawk. (Cliff Parmer)

I'm almost certain that FishHawk is re-labeled YLI.  Might be easier to get YLI than FishHawk, and the suppliers are easier to find. (Harry Boyd)

I think you are correct Harry. I remember reading somewhere (Clark’s I think) that YLI launched FishHawk to cater to rodmakers, and then it was sold to a private interest. (Tom Vagell)

I was under the impression that Fish Hawk was just a YLI brand name. I hadn't heard that the brand had been sold. In any event, the thread is identical to YLI, the only difference being the label on the end of the spool. (JW Healy)

Try these folks for a large selection of colors Rose Rushbrooke 1 and Rose Rushbrooke 2. Same company - two different web sites and big selection. (JW Healy)

I went to a local sewing machine store here in the Phoenix Valley & found they carried YLI silk thread.  They had most of the colors I wanted & ordered the ones I needed but they did not have.  Call around your area to sewing machine stores & you may be surprised what is available locally. (Bret Reiter)

Best place I've found to get YLI is Rose Rushbrooke, have yet to not be able to get any thread I've needed and shipping is super fast, usually within two days.  (Lee Gomolchak)

Well it turns out that shipping to the Uk from Rushbrooke is less than half the price Goldenwitch charges.

The order is in, thanks again guys. (Simon Reilly)

I'm in Australia and have been getting their silk for a while now. Don't know if anybody's better but they're good enough for me. (Tony Young)

I’ve ran in to the same thing…..I’ve bought several things from the UK and it’s cheaper to get it delivered to my house from over there than across the border in IL to central WI.Do ya think they are trying to make a buck or 2 in the shipping and handling lately??!! (Scott Bahn)

For what its worth, I recently received a shipment from Goldenwitch, and the shipping charge to Oregon was $7.95.  The order was just under $50 without shipping. (Doug Hojem)

I'm about to embark on wrapping a new tip for an Allcocks Sapper. Including the intermediates there will be 70 wraps. Pearsalls no. 18 is a perfect colour match but the original was wrapped in silk much heavier than my gossamer. Does anyone know if no 18 was ever made in Naples silk? Is there a source out there still?  Failing that do Fish hawk or YLI make a match for the Pearsalls? (Simon Reilly (2/13/2015))

You try here and see if you can find a match. (Ken Paterson)

Goldenwitch have a minimum postage of twenty dollars and I admit to baulking a bit at paying more than twice the price of the product for shipping. I've sent an enquiry to roserushbrooke about a match. I like the look of their range of silks. Don't know about their postage yet.  (Simon Reilly)

Rushbrook has reasonable rates. (Tony Young)

As a kid back in the neolithic age I watched a snooker game on TV just as colour was being rolled out and a few rich people had colour TVs but most didn't yet. The commentator told we viewers that the guy taking the shot was going for the blue ball in the side pocket and for those with B&W TV the blue ball is between the red and yellow balls.

According to my copy of Brook and River Trouting #18 comes after #17 with nothing after it and it looks to be a shade of Highlander green I guess you could call it. Not the garish Highlander Green but the original subdued one.

I don't know what this in the Crayola colour scheme. (Tony Young)

That is exactly why we should all only use black thread.  No color perservative is even needed.  (Ron Kubica)

I have been utilizing YLI - 50 for main wraps and tipped with YLI - 100.  My plan is to eventually move finer as my wrapping skills improve.  What are your favorite color combinations for main wraps and tips on medium to dark cane?  Ideally, suggestions for YLI silk.  (Ron Delesky (7/31/2016))

Since I have been making others tapers, such as Garrison, H.L. Leonard and Dickerson, I have been wrapping their traditional colors. Sometimes I stray from these wrap colors for what I have on hand. (Don Smith)