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It's really easy to wrap intermediates........

1. Whip/wrap the rod rings etc. as usual.
2. Mark on the spacing for the intermediate wraps with a light pencil.
3. Start off the first intermediate as you would any wrap, I use 6 turns of silk per wrap but onus is on the individual and the thickness of thread one uses and ones personal preference!
4. Then using the same spool of silk continue spiraling/rotating the rod until the silk is at the pencil mark for the second intermediate wrap.  Then do another 6 turns of silk and continue to the third wrap etc. etc. etc........At the end either finish as usual or just put in a few half hitches after the last intermediate.
5. Coat each intermediate with say two /three brushed coats of varnish applied with a fine brush.
6. After the last coat of varnish has dried remove the unwanted lengths of spiraling thread with a sharp scalpel blade.
7. Dip / finish the rod as per ones usual method i.e. dip, spray, brush or poured!

Now that should explain how it's done ?  (Paul Blakley)

I finished cutting off the in between wraps today, and I must report that the technique Paul posted worked fantastic. I did not lose a single wrap. A few notes on what seemed to work for me.

I put 45 intermediate wraps on the 6'6" rod I did. I used a 1" spacing and spaced them out evenly between the guides. I have done 7 and 3 wrap intermediates before, and the 1" spacing was easier to do than 7 wraps, and looks better that the 3 wrap style. I like the even look, and strangely there are no big gaps anywhere. I know this is not the traditional way, but it worked. I simply used a ruler, shifted one way or the other to center, and I marked off the wraps at the inch marks with a pencil. Took just under an hour for the whole shebang (guides were done prior to this). Most guides had four or five wraps between. I also did one inch spaced intermediates from the stripper to the signature. Green guide wraps with navy blue intermediates. Looks nice, IMHO.

Use two to three coats of Man-O-War spar, thinned slightly. I used three quickly over the last day and a half.

I applied the spar with a Stim-U-Dent toothpick. Because they are small and the ends are tapered, they work great. I also used them tonight on the previously unvarnished guide wraps. No bubbles and even coats. I will use them from now on for all my wraps. They are 150 or 200 a pack. $1.59 at Target. They work way better than the $5-8 brushes I bought.

When cutting the extra thread off, don't make your first cut at the intermediate. Cut the thread in between the varnished wraps you want to save. Work the thread around the blank towards the now varnished intermediate. Lay your scalpel down at the point you want to cut.  Apply the smallest pressure and pull the thread upwards to make the cut. Even if you over did it with the varnish, you can easily cut the thread neatly. If you try to use the scalpel to "saw" off the thread at the point you want, it will leave a really nasty edge.

I made the mistake of doing the wrapping over the already varnished blank. This works when you are just doing guides, but not with this technique. The thread tension left fine marks in the varnish between intermediates. Maybe it will work if the varnish is cured for a few months, but not after a week or two in the drying cabinet.

I think this technique is one of the most useful I have come across. If you watch the Winston Waters video, you will see Glenn Brackett wrapping like crazy down the rod using his ingenious wrapper (I believe this was JW's inspiration). I bet he is doing all the guide wraps in this style. I cannot figure out why else he would do this. Could one do a whole section worth of wraps with only one cut and tie off point? Anyone familiar with the video?  (Bob Maulucci)

Does anyone have any opinions on how much using intermediates on, say, 5" centers is going to slow down your basic 7' 4 wt. rod?  (James Piotrowski)

In my experience (I have compared all of two identical rods with and without intermediates) the difference is not discernible.  (Paul Blakley)

I know lots consider intermediate wraps to be nothing more than cosmetic. However, my subjective feeling is that they also cause a change in the rod action on otherwise similar tapers. My thought was at first this was do to the additional weight, but I'm not so sure that it also doesn’t add some stiffness to the rod. I sometimes like the look on a light colored rod, so  I do it once in a while.  (Randy Zimmerman)

I seem to remember a thread on this topic that related to a very old rod.  I don't remember what type of glue had been on it, but it was pointed out that the rod cast completely different when the intermediates were removed. Something to the effect of it felt like the individual strips were sliding was the rod was cast.  I found this to be an interesting twist on the use of intermediates as I had originally thought their main purpose was in case of glue failure.  I now believe otherwise, and this example was one of the main reasons.  I don't remember who posted about this rod on that topic, though.  (Carl DiNardo)

For info on the virtues of intermediates read "How to Improve the Fly rod" under "Extracts" on overmywaders.com  (Reed Curry)

I was looking through Sinclair's book, "Fishing rods by Divine" last night and read about the use of intermediate wraps in the portion of the rod from the tiptop down to the first snake guide only. No other intermediates on the remainder of the rod. From reading Reed's reference to "Improving the Flyrod" c.1911  from his Overmywaders site it validates the use of these wraps to alter the action of the rod.

The Divine Celdimoc had intermediates in that upper portion of the tip only, and another photograph of a Divine Tournament rod in the Sinclair book also shows intermediate wraps in just the upper portion of the tip.  In this case it also reveals an uneven distribution of the wraps, as if there was some fine tuning going on in order to perfect the tournament rods efficiency.  It clearly wasn't sloppiness in spacing, but intentional offset placement to affect the action.  (Chris McDowell)

I think that was me, I sent a message to the list just now. The rod in question was a 7' #4 or so rod made by Pape. Nice little rod, a little slower than most would like now though it would be good for nymphing but only after the inters were replaced.  There is a Taswiegan on the list who may pipe up and tell what it's like to fish with.

I think the inters were intended to hold the rod together when it got wet, the inters held things together while the glue and bamboo dried again. It must have been a hide glue of some sort for it's age. I know the English were using casein glue made from milk. It's a protein glue which is actually a form of UF and is a white powder mixed with water. The English boat builders used to call it cold water glue just in case you ever see that name given to glue.

I have used casein quite a bit with dingy building and it's good enough to be considered almost water proof, at least as much so as Titebond II. My dingy Son Of Sonnet is a ply wood lapped clinker built exclusively with it including the laminated keelson.

I used casein on a rod nodeless rod (epoxy for the scarfs) last Winter just to see how it would go and I couldn't tell the difference between this and the usual UFs we use from a two part can but it cures even when I sat the glue pot in iced water so fast it's not practical for rodmaking IMHO.

So inters would not have been required to hold this rod together if casein it was used. The only other glue they would have used was some kind of animal based glue like rabbit skin, fish or horse glue.

I've never used these last three on a rod to know what sort of action you'd get from them. What I'm trying to get to is inters do make a difference but I can't say absolutely how much so with modern glues, I'd bet the same difference because you still have fibers moving over and under each other regardless of the glue used which must also be taken into account.  (Tony Young)

I wonder how tightly spaced the inters need to be before one notices the "stiffening" effect.  You talk about 180 of these nasty little buggers, so I am assuming that if one were to space, say, just five of them between each guide for the aesthetic effect, this would make no noticeable difference. Yes?  (Bill Harms)

The Pape I did has inters every couple of inches or less.

The Para 15 had seven inters between guides evenly spaced. Presumably the more inters the stiffer the rod which was certainly the case with the old Pape but the only way you'd really know is put a few on then cast and put a few more on etc.

7 inters between guides looked OK and did make a difference though like I wrote it was a couple of weeks between casting with and then without the inters.  (Tony Young)

They most definitely tighten the action. It's very noticeable when you cast a rod with inters then remove them and cast again. You could do it the other way round of course but when you remove them than cast you can feel the difference within 15-20 minutes while when you cast before the inters you'll have likely forgotten just what the action was like.

I refinished a rod with 178 inters on a 7 foot rod. It was an old English rod that before I cast I was expecting a real buggy whip but it was surprisingly nice to use and I'd happily fish with it.

After I removed the inters I cast it again and it literally felt as if the glue was soft and the splines would delaminate, that's the only way to explain it. The glue was fine of course but it sure showed the difference the inters made. Without the inters this rod was pretty much useless as a fishing rod for modern tastes even in the bamboo set.

If you were to use the taper without the inters you'd have created a terrible rod though maybe not so much with modern glues, this was likely rabbit skin glue or something. Nevertheless it was a very good demonstration of the difference they made.

The extra weight is negligible compared with the crisper action you'll get with inters.

Don't forget when you cast there is a lot going on, the fibers of the bamboo are sliding over and under each other in compression or elongation depending on their positions in the rod and what the rod's doing at the time, there is also the glue which allows some movement, something else you notice when using different glues, UF is the crisper that I've found while epoxy the least so with resorcinol in the middle.

The inters reduce a lot of this movement and it is noticeable. They weren't used for that when they were required to hold the rods together way back when but they serve the purpose nevertheless of stiffening the rod. They are a hassle to put on but if you want to speed up a taper just a little without increasing the dimensions inters are not a bad way to do it.  (Tony Young)

I do not know why but I agree that it seems to stiffen a rod.  (Marty DeSapio)

There doesn't seem to be too much info in the archives on Intermediates - I checked "inters" also and nothing there.

Wondering how acceptable intermediates are in general. Are they something frowned upon and wondering if for example one wanted to stiffen up a tip section could would one just put inters on the tip section?  Also seem to remember hearing something about a continuous wrap,  any opinions? Suggestions? Help? or otherwise?  Advantages or disadvantages?   Acceptable number of wraps per inter? Typical effects on the rod?  (John Silveira)

The continuous wrap method is very easy. There is a description of the way I do it and several others at Todd's Bamboo Tips Site. It can stiffen the tip to an extant, and it can also deaden a rod as well, I have found. There is a fine line between the stiffening and the extra varnish that could really end up killing a rod.

It really does look nice, but I have limited myself to doing very few that way anymore. I encourage you to give it a shot, and maybe limit the wraps to three turns at three places between each guide. I simply find the center between guides and then half that to get the wrap on each side of that. I keep meaning to do an article on this in Power Fibers, but I have not been good at getting to that particular one. Maybe now that I have a better digital camera I will.  (Bob Maulucci)

I was wondering what the  standard # of  intermediates is on a rod.  I know that the # of course changes with the length of the rod, what I mean is, do you decide on a number (say 5 intermediates between each guide) and then divide evenly as you make your way up to the tip?   (Robert Cristant)

I have done this on several rods, but I am not sure what the classic rods used as a  general rule of thumb. My schemes have been one of the following, and they are easiest to do because they are more visual in nature and always work from the center line:

1. Find the center between guides. Wrap there and then find the center between that intermediate and the guides on each side to make three wraps total. Like this.

}--l--l--l--{

2. Do as above but split those once again to make 7 wraps total. Like this.

}--l--l--l--l--l--l--l--{

3. Find the center of the two guides. Using a ruler, find the center and them mark one inch slashes from that point until you come close to the guides. The nice thing about this way is that you get the tapering number of intermediates as you go up the rod.

However, BE CAREFUL. Adding intermediates can change the feel of the rod completely. It can deaden the rod's action in some cases and should be used sparingly. I would use 3 wraps unless you are looking for a specific more busy look that is more important than how the rod will cast.  (Bob Maulucci)

I'm working on a 9 1/2 foot FE Thomas Special right now.  The intermediates start at the signature wraps and are 7/8" apart.  They get closer and closer, all the way to the tip, where they are 3/8" apart.  Yuk!  187 total wraps, not counting guides, ferrules, signature wraps.  (Harry Boyd)

The FE Thomas I am doing is only 9' (about 180 intermediates) and most of the butt & mid intermediates are OK. I must say that FE Thomas  did a fantastic job of wrapping. I stripped the old finish off with Citristrip and didn't lose a single wrap.  (Doug Easton)

I would like to ad a couple of things.

1. I applied Citristrip generously with a soft paint brush.

2. I washed off the remover and the old varnish with water and gentle brushing with the same paint brush.

3. I rinsed the rod with spray-on remover neutralizer (After Strip by  Back to Nature Products).

4. I repeated this process very carefully several times until all the varnish was removed from the bamboo. I did not try to remove the varnish that had penetrated the wraps.

5. I rinsed with cool water again and dried the rod by gentle blotting with a paper towel.

6. I allowed the rod to dry out for more than a week

7. I refinished all the old wraps with 2-3 coats of Minwax fast drying poly varnish

8. Final finish was with two coats of Helmsman Spar.

A picture of the result is here.  (Doug Easton)

When you do intermediates, how many turns of thread on each? Just wondering  (Bill Bixler)

I'm not particularly experienced on intermediates.  This is only my 4th rod with intermediates.  Their width will be determined by what thread I can find to match the deep red original wraps.  If I can use Pearsalls Gossamer, probably 7-8 turns.  If I have to use 2/0 thread, probably 4 turns.  (Harry Boyd)

The last rod I repaired/restored that had intermediates, I used three wraps.  (Mark Wendt)

I made intermediates in all my Hollow Build Series. I made them with 6 turns of Pearsalls Gossamer and use the system that Bob Maulucci explain in his post.  (Marcelo Calviello)

I want to wrap intermediates on a rod that I am finishing.  I've looked on the Rodmaker's archives and there is a description of wrapping intermediates by spiraling the thread down the rod from wrap to wrap without whipping or knotting,  Am I to understand that the varnish is what prevents the intermediates from unraveling?  Is this how it is recommended that I try wrapping the intermediates?  (Gabe Batson)

That is the easy way of doing it works OK. YES THE VARNISH STOPS IT FALLING APART. After one coat cut of what you don’t want.  (Gary Nicholson)

You can do as you describe but the ruse can be spotted on close inspection. Yes it is just the varnish holding the thread in place.  None of the classic rods of the past were whipped in this way to my knowledge, leastways I've never seen one.

Tedious though it is, doing them properly is better.  Hold the pull through loop on the shaft whip over about 5 turns and finish pulling the ends tight and snugging up the turns.  Cut off the two ends leaving around 1/2" projecting then varnish the wrap.  When the varnish is dry cut off the ends with a scalpel.   (Gary Marshall)

Yes Gary if you look real close you can spot it it true. But If you use fine tread is hard to see if it done with some degree of care.

It's also best to point out with modern glues it really not needed and is only done for cosmetic reasons.  (Gary Nicholson)

The posting on wrapping intermediates via the spiral technique was first made public I believe by me several years ago.  This technique works and is a cost effective use of one's time. I have trouble trying to sell rods as it is (for a reasonable price) and if I was to charge for putting individual wraps on a rod I would be losing money (or even more money than I already am) for sure or even more likely not selling rods at all because they would simply be too costly in the eyes of the average buyer. 

All of which leads me to selling rods and the rod market in general.  I am now convinced after almost giving away a few quality rods (at very very low ebay prices) that the market for modern cane rods is decreasing and that the buyers of the last few years have all but disappeared and are not being replaced by a new generation. I suspect this is because the new generation have been brought up totally on carbon and as such have no affinity towards cane ?

The only UK rod maker I know who is now making a full time living out of cane is Chapmans who machines blanks for the rest of the world to finish (and there are some big named rod 'makers' using Chapmans blanks and selling them as their own but my lips are sealed on this one).  I am reasonably sure Barder is no longer 100% making rods and if he can't make a full time living at it who is left here, answer no one.  I guess what I am trying to say is that even as a recreational/hobby rod builder I am accumulating a stock of well made and well finished rods that I can't shift and that I don't think the market is ever going to be there to enable me to sell them at what would be a reasonable or even a break even cost.

What are your experiences, are any of you hobby builders recovering your costs or are you happy giving the majority of your time away for free?

All comments welcome.  (Paul Blakley)

I'm sorry to hear that the market for quality bamboo rods is so poor over there. I don't sell many rods a year, but I do manage to stay as busy as I want to making rods part time while I work a full time job. I've talked to a few rodmakers here and they all seem to have quite a bit of business, it seems a web site (which I don't have) helps quite a bit.  (John Channer)

The B. James MK fours were quite excessively whipped, about every 5/16 of an inch with 4 turns of what I take to be Elephant silk of about 6/0.  They were not tied off in the samples I've been able to check. I was once told that the silk was excessively waxed and therefore stuck of its own accord. You can just about do this but the result is extremely unrobust until varnished!  I've got to do one soon, too, and I don't know how I got into this, but I'll probably use Gossamer claret and tie them off, you can do this quite quickly with four turns, it's two that gets the expletives going.

A reliable source tells me that even at £650 or so for a rod he is not exactly turning away orders.  (Robin Haywood)

You are certainly right about the fact that they are basically just aesthetic.  The coarse fishing fraternity remain wedded to the look however and like to see them in the hundreds.

I tried the continuous wrap method on a test stick once and was not keen on the result so I would never use it on a rod for sale or a restoration. Having restored dozens of old rods, frequently being able to strip the varnish and yet retain the intermediates I quite like the idea of someone in the future being equally pleased when they strip one of my rods.

As a point of interest several early rods I have worked on were found to have delaminated despite a positive plethora of intermediates.  (Gary Marshall)

Probably a result of the dreaded Cascamite.  It's been the ruination of manty an Aspindale, Allcocks and 60's Hardy?  (Paul Blakley)

It sort comes under the same classification as doing the colour tips on wraps by using a Sharpie - it's easy, it looks OK to the untutored eye, but it's not the best way to do it.

And with a little practice, doing it the "tedious" way is really not so tedious after all once you get your hand in.  (Peter McKean)

I make fishin' poles. I don't sell rods, though once in a while when a rod case does collect too much dust I might put it up for sale as a well used rod at the Little Lehigh Fly Shop.

I can still tie and fish with size 26 Tricos, but years ago after fooling around with intermediates for about five minutes I decided that they are not needed on my fishing tools. I love Garrison's stark minimalized cosmetics.

Correction: as my signature wraps I  do put coarse intermediates at the twelve, 14, 16 18 and twenty inch stations of my rods  measured, as all proper measurements should be made, from the butt end. The purpose of these wraps is to measure my trout so that in my heart I know just how large they are truly are. Then of course I rejoin the catch-and-release world of immediate and exaggerated growth.

I guess that in terms of priority I'm a fishin' rodmaker rather than a rodmaking fisher. Are there any others like me out there?  (Bill Fink)

Intermediates, intermediates, intermediates .... Oh how I hate intermediates!!

Sorry for the babbling.  I am doing a complete rewrap on a very nice Cross rod with full intermediates.  Wes Jordan must have been nuts, what with tipping each guide wrap at both ends and a gazillion intermediate wraps.  Can someone give me a tip on making sure the intermediates are square on the blank.  I wrap and adjust each until it is square, but it is taking forever.  If anyone has a method you can offer I sure would be grateful.  (Jack Holton)

Naaaaa, Wes wasn't nuts. Remember in these production companies, once the rod was made they handed it over to women and/or girls who did all the wrapping. And most of them did a remarkable job for pay that wasn't all that great. I'll bet if any of them were around today they could show us more about how to wrap a rod than most rodmakers could. I hate the damn things also and it seems like 3/4 of all the restoration work I've done over the last 3 years had full intermediates. The only advice I can offer is to just keep plugging away and eventually it will get done. Like you I'm hoping someone will offer some surefire tips to make it easier.  (Will Price)

Years ago someone posted to the list their way of doing intermediates.  What they did was make one wrap, then instead of tying off, they would spiral up to the next location and wrap.  This would continue up the section.  Then varnish was applied to the intermediates only.  After the first coat was dry, they would use a sharp razor and cut the spirals off.  Then the wraps are finished as usual.

Sounds like it might be a bit easier, not necessarily faster.  If you try it, report back so others can learn from your experiences.  (Scott Grady)

I had never thought of doing intermediates but this sounds doable for me if I ever want to add or replace them, good idea!  (Mike Monsos)

That is the way I do it.  I do two thread width tipping that way also.  (Timothy Troester)

A lot of the English rodmakers in Redditch and even Ealing did it this way, it causes a lot of head scratching when innocents inspect the wraps under a magnifier!  (Robin Haywood)

I did this, building on Dave Norling’s technique of spiraling off the guide wraps and sealing with Flex Cote, rather than pulling the end under with a loop.  I started an intermediate with three turns, spiraled up, another three turns, etc., and taped the last spiral.  Not only is it very fast, the consistency gets you pretty close to even spacing and perpendicularity (!) on the first run-thru.  The obnoxious part is spreading any kind of finish — even pine tar — on a wrap that thin.

Just shows t’ go ya — nothing new under the sun!  (Steve Yasgur)

I think that the "train up some needy woman and reward her generously" solution is, in the end, the least painful.  (Robin Haywood)

Is there a formula for deciding the spacing of intermediate wraps or is it just personal preference?  (Simon Reilly)

Simon the decision to do full intermediate wraps is not taken lightly. I was helped by bourbon to complete this task. In looking at some of the vintage rods in my collection, I determined that the intermediates were less than 1" apart on the tips and got progressively further apart the further down the rod I went. I first spaced my guides as I normaly would then I took the distance between the guides and divided by the number of intermediate spaces needed at .75 ~ .80 inches to fill the space. I slowly increased this spacing down the rod until I ended with spacing about 1" in the butt. Note that placing intermediates on a rod will stiffin the rod about 1/2 to 1 line size.  (Ken Weymouth)

I have wondered about this intermediate wraping also.  But, can either of you provide a picture of it or diagram as to what it is suppose tolook like. (Lew Boyko)

Does the extra weight not to a large extent negate the effects of stiffening? (Peter McKean)

Not if yer using Pearsalls Gossamer. Light as smoke. (Mark Wendt)

Did one like that. 120 intermediates with gossamer and it near sent me blind :) (Blake Swadling)

Builds character, don't it? (Mark Wendt)

Did a restoration once with about that many (also with gossamer) and found out after dipping that I had done a poor job of color preserving, so stripped them all off and started over.  Most likely the last time I tackle intermediates.  I've pretty much given up on character building. To quote Popeye "I yam what I yam, and that's all that I yam” :-) (Jim Rowley)

I'm not a huge fan of intermediates, and the only times I usually do them is on restorations and repairs.  If a customer wants 'em, he/she is going to have to pay extra. (Mark Wendt)

I don’t know why but I don’t but doing intermediates is a very trying thing but alas I love them my way was taken from Joe Arguello hope spelled your name right if not please do not be insulted just an old fly fisher spelling. I use the pine pitch method and it really makes it a lot easier. I quit gossamer a long time ago. I use Fish Hawk now a lot easy on the eyes size A. I just find it not only pretty but it does stiffen the rod a bit which I like a lot and the satisfaction I get from doing this time consuming job. Happy Trails. (Charlie Cole)

I should have mentioned that this is in response to a question by someone else considering it. I renewed the intermediates on a ten foot Sharpes many years ago but didn't know if there was a "proper" way of working it out. I just eyeballed it. Personally other than in a restoration I would rather stick needles in myself than take it on again. Still, the advice is noted and stored away in case I ever need to fill six months of my life up and I thank you all.

(Note to self, learn more about bourbon.)  (Simon Reilly)

When doing intermediate wraps do any of you use a pine pitch solution to make the silk tacky and help it stay in place?  I have found that helpful in holding wraps that are only a few turns wide.  (Ron Kubica)

I have used masking tape to hold the first wrap. It helps me with intermediates with less than 5 wraps.  I saw the masking tape trick on a video on Youtube.  (John Smith)

I wonder if intermediates are a hangover from the days when rods were made of solid wood which would have a tendency to split parallel to the grain when flexed too much.  

Intermediates would seem to help redistribute the bending stress deeper into other portions of the section if one part was beginning to fail.  (Cliff Parmer)

Regardless of what they were originally intended for they most definitely stiffen the rod.  (Tony Young)

Intermediate wraps appear to be a very ‘English’ thing to do, many of the English Classics have them.

Argued for a while that these were put on to hide imperfections in the cane, hold the thing together and they make a rod stiffer?

Never bother on rod’s I build only have to at times use them refurbishing classic rods, building the customer a new tip etc.

Built a new tip on a James 10’ Avon rod and re did the butt, this has 3/8” intermediates along its length, nearly drove me mad as a I hand whip.

This rod was repaired for a friend’s father tip having been broken by his other son standing on it 20 years back and the old fella had kept it ever since. They gave it back to him on Christmas day and helped him whip the tears from his eyes, so it was worth it. Oh and he is talking to his son now LOL.

Doing a rod I purchased (cheap but nice cane and build) that had intermediates for myself and really don’t want to put them back on, there is no staining on the cane were the wraps had been.

What do you think?

If you think I should put them back on will somebody be so kind as to offer to do them for me (Joke) (Paul Johnson)

I have done intermediates wrapping them continuously with a single strand of thread. It goes fairly quickly.

You first do the guide wraps and apply first cost of varnish to them.

When dry you do the intermediates - simply wind the thread between intermediates wraps in open turns close enough to keep the intermediates wraps intact. Go straight over the guides in open turns.

When complete tape down the end of the thread.

Then you varnish the intermediate wraps with small drops of varnish on a dubbing needle and wipe off the varnish with your finger.

After the varnish is nearly completely dry, carefully cut the thread on each side of the intermediates with a sharp blade and pull off the open winding threads. Gently scrape off any varnish that may have bled along the threads onto the blank

That’s it. (Stephen Dugmore)

I have a winter project that will have intermediates. I was hesitant to take it but he could find no one that would do it.

This is a 15 foot Leonard Salmon trolling rod. It had about 100 intermediates.

The rod is not being restored as it already has some changes made. It originally had ring guides and they were changed to snake guides. It will just be finished so it is usable and looks a lot better than it looks now.

The wrapping of the Snake guides was poorly done and the varnish that was applied to the rod and wraps is all checked and cracked.

This will be a big project but there will be no time limit on getting it done. (Tony Spezio)

If the wraps are need to "hold the thing together and stiffen the rod" would you not expect the rod to fall apart or change significantly if you did not include them? If it was me I would probably choke it down and do them a few at a time.  (Timothy Troester)

I wrote this tutorial many years ago, maybe it will help. (Joe Arguello)

Many years ago before I made rods, but owned a couple of bamboos with a lot of intermediates, I asked a well respected individual in the fly fishing world of WI who has since passed away why there were so many wraps on my rods.  He said that was because of the poor glue they used 100 years ago.  They tied on the extra wraps to help support the rod for fear it would come apart with heavy use and exposure to the elements.  Remember, they used them to fish and put food on the table first and foremost.  I tend to agree with that theory, although I have since thought of another one in recent years that to me makes just as much sense........If you look at just about anything that was made at the turn of the century (not the last one!), it was beautiful and well built.  People just worked harder, were industrious, and didn't mind spending the extra time to make a rod (or anything for that matter) look as beautiful as possible, think Victorian era.  I have been working to restore an old treadle sewing machine and cabinet from the late 1800's on and off the last couple of years and as I completely dismantled it piece by piece and put it all back together, it's amazing how much craftsmanship went into such a simple yet functional household item.

Just my theory, could be way off base though. (Scott Bahn)

Where's that 'Like' button.... I couldn't agree more! I recently restored and relined a Remington #4 22 rifle and a Stevens Favorite that was a 25 rimfire, I lined that one for a 22 lr also. When I'm at the range those are the guns that get the most attention, not all the AR's and stuff like that made out of plastic! Besides that, they are a blast to shoot (no pun intended) I also have my Mom's old Singer treadle sewing maching, sew most of my rod socks on it! (Joe Arguello)

Thanks for the link, Joe.  You have reignited my interest in an old Abbie and Imbrie Centennial rod that was my first major restoration about 18 years ago.  It has, and I just counted them, 142 wraps on a 9” 3/2.  I changed the color from black w/ light green accents to light green wraps and dark green accents.  I have always intended to go back and do it right, but the memories of those intermediates always kicked me back to reality.  Now that I’m retired I should have time – except I’m too busy!  Maybe next winter.  It is a nice rod, I took it to the Bighorn and fished it; the guide just about croaked when he found the rod dated to the turn of the last century.

BTW, speaking of old stuff. would you mind discussing off line maybe the relining process?  I have a rifle I picked up in the ‘70’s that I intended to restore.  It is a target rifle, the barrel is 1 1/8” across the flats (you would have to shoot from a rest, too heavy for offhand).  The lock is back-action, suggesting post-1840.  The buttstock is a fish belly shape, suggesting it was made in the Ohio River valley.  Its in pretty rough shape; the breechplug is loose, the lock sloppy, buttplate missing, etc.  I could deal with all those issues, but some fool had bored it out very roughly to about .45 cal. – these guns typically ranged from .36 cal. up.  I just never got up enough interest to deal with the sleeving process. 

I just finished a PA longrifle that I pretty much completed in 1983; I hunted with it then and took 2 bucks in 2 days with 2 shots.  I just never got around to putting the finishing touches, as I stopped hunting around that time.  I recently started hunting coyotes and might hunt turkey this spring.  Every deer I ever got was taken with a hand made muzzle loader, with .45 cal. round balls and real black powder – none of the synthetic stuff used today.  In fact, just try to buy black powder!  (Carey Mitchell)

I was once asked to refinish an English rod with a lot of intermediates. I cast the rod as soon as I received it and it was quite a nice action. When I removed the inters I cast it again and it was a real buggy whip. Completely different rod.

My suggestion is if the rod originally had them replace them especially if the person cast the rod much because he'll tell the difference without them. (Tony Young)

I'd leave them off. It is a moot point whether or not they make the rod any stiffer - hard to see, based on physics, why they would - but they certainly add weight and impart a "doughy" feel to the rod. (Peter McKean)

Thanks for the responses some interesting ideas.

Can anybody tell me why bother to put them on in the first place?

I suggested to an old boy who had made rods using the boiled up animal bits glue method and had known Richard Walker, that using them would make a rod stiffer, he went nuts!

Good cane should be seen for what it is, I never build new rods and use intermediates. (Paul Johnson)

Aesthetics – looks bambooey. (Stephen Dugmore)

So, I just finished a Dickerson 7613 for a friend and when I tried it the action was pretty slow.  I had a rod in the closet I built for my son in law with the exact same taper - not near as slow.  Only difference between the two is a series of intermediate wraps (Signature) between the grip and the stripper on the rod I just finished.  Wondering if the wraps had the effect of slowing the rod.  I got no idea. (Michael Allen)

I really doubt sig wraps on any quick taper like the D7613 would make a discernible difference.  Could be a few things or combination of things at work here.  Depth of power fibers (overall cane quality), node placement, node frequency (internodal distances), heat treatment variances​, planing accuracy.  Please don't take any of this as questioning in any way your skill as a rodmaker, just laying out what I believe are any and all possible culprits for the discrepancy.  I'm sure others can add to complete the list.  (Bob Brockett)

Wow, where to start?

Bamboo the material is not exactly the same every time, close but not exact. 

An unintentional and possibly unknown at this stage variation in dimensions at some point. Maybe mic between the 3 sets of flats flats every few inches and see if there is anything different there between the rods.

A variation in heat treating.

The time between heat treating and finishing.

Bindings and their number do make a dif to the action of a rod, quite a lot in fact but it's hard to imagine a sig wrap where you describe being the culprit. (Tony Young)

I forgot to mention the glue. Did you use the same glue on both rods? (Tony Young)

I do agree that each culm can potentially impart a different action in a rod, but more importantly, strips can differ from each other. I do strive to reach the desired taper, but, once a ection is finished, I bend all the strip together to see if any bend different that the rest and plane accordingly. This is what a lot of "old timers" did.  If you measure old rods you will see that the dimensions are not exact, and I believe this is sometimes deliberate. (Larry Tusoni)

I am a fairly new rod maker but have read eagerly as much as possible on the forums, books etc. Tom Morgan wrote some very interesting things regarding all the variables in building and finishing a bamboo rod. As you all know there are so many. So when I see a question like the one posed here it seems logical that any one, or a selected number of these variables could affect the actions between the two rods. I wonder how much we could see these differences if one of the gatherings promoted a challenge rod of a different kind wherein the challenge was for each builder to build exactly the same rod, (same taper, heat treating, guide spacing, coats of finish etc.) and then we could all see the actual variability that exists. Has that been tried before? My guess is we would see quite a bit of action variability with same taper with same line. (Greg McGowan)

The Grand experiment used the same taper with different build aspects. There is a write up in one of the "Best of The Planing Form" books. (Scott Grady)

While the Grand Experiment would theoretically test a particular difference with all other factors being held. It assumed that all the rods built would be of equal action if made exactly the same way. What I am wondering, is that assumption correct? Therefore by everyone building a rod exactly the same, how much difference would there be? (Greg McGowan)

Recently I made two rods (hexagonal) with exactly the same taper.  I used two culms, one for each rod.  Heat treatment was identical for all strips.  All strips were planed with a Morgan Hand Mill as if I were making a 12-strip rod.  Glue and heat-setting of the glue were the same.  I measured completed sections at each station (all three axes and then averaged) with a micrometer. Only one or two stations showed a variation between the blanks of no more than 0.001”, otherwise all of the measurements were identical. The same guides and reel-seat hardware were used for both rods.  The only difference in the completed rods are the color of the wraps and wood of the reel-seat insert.

The two rods were tested side-by-side by good casters at the ponds of the Golden Gate Angling and Casting Club.  All who tried the rods agreed that one was somewhat softer than the other.  My explanation?  The natural variations in the cane of the two culms. Both culms had close to the same thickness of power fibers.  The strips from one (which produced the slightly softer rod) were slightly easier to plane. (Tim Anderson)

I've seen intermediate wraps on big salmon rods, but also on smaller trout rods. In today's technology, what capability or utility do they have? It seems they'd help stiffen a rod some if needed. Is there a formulaic way to decide how many to put on and the spacing of them? I assume that they are proportionately closer together closer to the tip? Decorative vs functional? Other possibilities? In the books I've read, I don't remember seeing much talk about them. (Sam Nielson)

I once had cause to try an older rod that had a lot of intermediates, I can't remember now but I think they were 1.5" apart or thereabouts. The rod cast quite nicely with the intermediates on, I liked it, a moderate action that was very comfortable to cast. Removed the intermediates and cast it without doing anything else and it was a completely different rod that became hyper soft and slow. It felt as if I could literally feel the splines moving along the gluelines. Who knows what the glue was though. Didn't cast it much for fear of damaging it. Put the intermediates back on and it was just as it was before. Interestingly when the wraps were removed you could easily see the slight indentations the wraps made in the cane and you could see that there was slight movement under the wraps.

I also made a Para 15 taper for a chap who wanted intermediates because he just did and if I compared it to the one I owned that didn't have them again it cast like a different rod completely. Wasn't bad, just different.

The last occasion I had to be involved with them was a Dickerson 7613 taper I had that was nodeless. The scarfs began to make me wonder about the rod so I put intermediates on this rod too and it turned a stiff rod into a much stiffer one. 

They stiffen a rod up but it does seem as if you need a lot of them to achieve this but I'd be inclined to chose a taper that does what you want rather than stiffen up something using intermediates.

I didn't notice any problems with added weight of varnish in wraps etc. The rods seemed to stiffen more than the extra weight of the wraps dampens it. (Tony Young)

I'm making a copy of an Ed Payne tip to replace one that is missing.  The tip section has 39 intermediate wraps spaced from just over an inch apart to about 5/8 inch apart. 

When I have done intermediates in the past I have just aligned to two sections next to each other and made a small pencil mark on one flat, covering that mark with the wrap. I'm wondering if there is a better way?  Any suggestions? (Harry Boyd (7/13/2016))

I use a drawing compass to mark the wrap locations, assuming they are all a fixed distance apart, and its an accurate and fast way of doing it.  Just what I do, I am sure there are many alternatives. (Larry Tusoni)

I recently refinished an old Orvis 99 and positioned the guides and wrap lengths in the exact same manner you described.  It'll be interesting to see if anyone has a better idea. (Cliff Nigh)