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I'm working on perfecting my wrap finishing and want to know how much sanding do those of you who feel you have a good system for nice wrap results.
Last but not least is there a good web site that shows the plans for a Drip System? Been using foam brushes to this point. Have wife's permission to drill a hole in the cellar stairs. (Jim Tefft) I put 3 coats of spar or poly allowing to dry 24 hours between coats. I then dip 1 or 2 coats on the whole rod (with poly I steel wool between coats). I then sand with #1000 the whole rod wraps and all. I more or less just knock the high spots down on the wraps. I tack off with mineral spirits and dip the final coat. (Marty DeSapio) How many coats? Depends on thread size and how much you thin your finish. More thin coats is better than a few thick ones. I thin my finish a lot. I want it to soak in good and dry fast. After it starts to build up, I let it dry good and sand with nothing coarser than 1000 grit sandpaper between coats till I get a good finish, then I do a final dip to blend it altogether. (David Dziadosz)
I'm wrapping with YLI or Pearsalls Naples silk. Varnish is Epiphanies cut with turps. My question is... How many coats of varnish do you guys put on before sanding your wraps (if you sand your wraps) and what grit paper do you use? Do you sand wet or dry or with some magic elixir? How long do you wait to sand, assuming drying is at room temps? (Mike Givney) I put enough coats of varnish on the wraps to completely cover them, wait 3 days after the last coat, then sand them with 1200 grit wet/dry wrapped around a piece of wood(specially picked from the scrap pile for this job, (3/4" wide, 1/4" thick and roughly 5' long) used dry, I go thru a lot of it. I sand the wraps with the thin side of the scrap wood, after the whole rod is varnished I use the wide side between coats, Which reminds me, I dip twice after I get the wraps done, 3 times if absolutely necessary. (John Channer) I build the varnish with five coats (one per day) and then let dry for two or three more days. Then sand the fuzzies an' stuff with 1500 grit wet-or-dry. Cut a sheet into little 2" x 2" pieces, and work carefully by sanding only the flats. Apply a couple more light coats of varnish and sand again. Then, one final coat. You can wet-sand (though I don't) by dipping an edge of the paper into mineral spirits. Your paper will last MUCH longer, and the grit will cut more efficiently too. But the problem is that you can't really watch your progress, since the wetted surface masks the chalky look of the sanded surface. (Bill Harms)
I put 3 coats of varnish on my wraps and sanded the bumps off after a week's drying time with emery boards of varying grits 600 to 1500, I am guessing. This made the once clear, clean bumpy wraps a ugly cloudy and dull finish, though I did get rid of the bumps. I am planning on dipping the rod in a dip tube. But how do I get my luster back on the wraps? (Matt Baun) The next coat of varnish will restore the gloss. Making them dull and nasty looking is what sanding is supposed to do, that's what helps the next coat stick. (John Channer) Yeah, that sand paper will do that. Before you add more varnish to the mix you might consider using some method to remove the dust from the wraps and the rest of the rod as far as that goes. (Timothy Troester) They are supposed to look dull. If you can still see shiny spots, those are the low spots and will show up in the final finish. If you want to see what the finished wrap will look like after dipping, you can apply some varnish on the wraps with a lintless cloth or a good piece of paper towel. Just wipe it on the wraps real light. If the wrap looks smooth it is ready to dip. If is is not smooth, I would apply another full coat of varnish and sand again. I personally prefer steel wool. If you use steel wool, pass a magnet over the wraps to pick up any particles that might still be there after wiping down. (Tony Spezio)
I put two warm unthinned spar coats on some tip wraps about 1 hour apart. I was intending to start putting thin coats after that. I had to leave it for a day or two and am wondering if it's safe to go ahead and start with thin coats or do I have to start over? The thread texture is still showing somewhat as well as the fuzzies. It's dry to the touch. Is it safe to sand it a little or will that just ruin the silk? (1st rod if you couldn't guess) (Bruce Johns) Don't sand wraps until they are completely covered with varnish, sanded thread will look "wrong" no matter how much varnish you put over it. (John Channer) I do sand after one or two coat......just very lightly with 600 grit to know off the fuzzies. If I am feeling aggressive, I sand with 400 but I wouldn't recommend on your first rod. I sand between each coat to keep buildup to a minimum and keep things hex shaped. (Barry Janzen)
It's almost funny how we sometimes get stuck in our ways and are hesitant to try new things. For years Tony Spezio (and others too, probably) has been recommending the Sand Turtle as THE tool to use when sanding wraps between finish coats or when trying to remove a dust spec after the last coat on wraps. I have used some supposedly similar products for years. They always worked okay, but never perfectly. On my last rod or two I have used the Sand Turtle and am blown away what a nice job it does. It's so much better than what I have been using that I am kicking myself for not trying the Sand Turtle sooner. Why, o why have I fooled with 1000g and 1500g sandpaper? Why in the world have I tried using the little fiberglass detail sander pens? Why would I wrestle with various forms of steel wool? Had I been using the Sand Turtle 10-15 years ago I would have saved myself many, many hours of work trying to get wraps to look perfect. So, thank you Tony for recommending this product. And my apologies to those I have taught to sand wrap finish any other way. Might any of you have a good online source for the STG's? You know, those shaped like emery boards? I'd like to buy several dozen. Our local beauty supply places do not carry them. (Harry Boyd) Talk to Tony Spezio. He was just talking about having a great place to get them. I plan to pick up a bunch from him at SRG. (Mike McClain) Has anyone ever made their own using craft sticks and strips of wet/dry sand paper? (Tom Key) I have done that for years. I have several laying in my shop. Not sure if they look the same as sand turtles though. Mine are Popsicle sticks with sandpaper glued to them. (Bret Reiter) Carl O Connor from Canada showed everyone the ones he makes using wooden coffee stirrers with sandpaper glued to them. Lay out the wet dry in 600 or 1200 or 1500 and spray with adhesive. Lay the sticks on them and press until dry. Cut them out with n Xacto or razor blade. I have a whole drawer of them but I want to try Tony and Harry's gizmos.They work really well (the coffee stirrers that is). (Gordon Koppin) Not even in the same league as the Sand Turtle. (Harry Boyd) Is this what you are looking for? (JW Healy) Those are not the ones I use. The ones I use have a Green side for buffing and a White side for polishing. They are hard to find. The number is 115312. (Tony Spezio) I am planning on doing a presentation at the SRG using the Sand Turtles. I am thinking of getting a box of 50 to have there. They are real hard to find and you have to be a Beauty shop owner or a dealer with Sally Hansen to get them. I have been ordering them out of a place in Kansas City but they are real hesitant to sell them to me and the charge is high. I have talked to a wholesale place and they said they would work with me on this but I have to buy 50 or 100. They last pretty well for two or three rods so that many would last me more than my lifetime left to making rods. I plan on taking some to the SRG for those that might want them. I will have to see if this will materialize as I have not dealt with them in the past.Have you tried the White side for final polishing, you will be amazed. (Tony Spezio) Are these what you guys are talking about? Looks like you can buy them here as well a on Amazon. Here's the link. (Larry Puckett) This is where I buy mine from. (Jim Brandt) Still not the ones I use. (Tony Spezio) Here's a good source. Good price too! (Joe Arguello) Although it is not online, you can bulk order from the manufacturer in Kansas City as well. I can't hobble downstairs to the shop for another month to get the phone number but Gary Young has it also. (Marv Loopstra For the official sand turtles: This is from the return address label Terry Binns Distribution2051 Holmes St.Kansas City, MO 64108816 221 9977terrybinscatalogue.com (Gary Young) Maybe I have not been reading carefully, but I have not seen a definitive description of the correct sand turtles to buy. For which grit, or color should one be looking? (Steve Shelton) From Tony: I've been using these types of "soft" sanders for some time now. There are other brands out there and I can't tell any difference in using them. They usually come with one very fine side and one a bit coarser, and then there are blocks that have different grits on every side. The blocks can be nice for the blank and the flat sticks for wraps. I've found the finest to be virtually identical to using a shred of brown paper bag, but a whole lot easier to use! I probably did get the idea from Tony Spezio (losing track of all the good ideas I've gotten from him), but the wife and daughter leave these things lying around the house all the time and complain when they mysteriously disappear. Life is full of mysteries. (Bob Brockett) These are what I just purchased. Several other sources are available, perhaps some less expensive. (Harry Boyd)
In the spirit of the list lately, I visited a couple of the Sally's Beauty Supply looking for the elusive Sand Turtle Gleemers (with the correct part #, Thanks, Tony Spezio!!) and found they did not have them. Darn! They had two different Sand Turtles, but not that one. So I was going to buy a couple of the polisher/buffer boards or blocks of whatever they are. My wife happened to be with me and some hair chemical shampoos or something caught her eye, and that was taking more than about 3 seconds. So I was bored now (always dangerous). (And being in such a store, somewhat in enemy, err.... unfamiliar territory) (My wife also was visiting Victoria's Secret as she has to be in a wedding line this weekend. And I remembered, was it Skip Morris or A.K. Best or somebody who ended up inadvertently in such a place with a 10x loupe fingering the unmentionables on the rack there. So I stayed outside.) So all of a sudden I found myself looking at eyelashes! You know those strips of hairy things I guess you glue to your own? But also right there was what they called 'individual' eyelashes, or small bunches. I thought, amazing, how in the heck do you put on just one little bunch on your own eyelash? I'd probably end up gluing the thing to my retina. But then it hit me. Those little individual bunches just might work well as tail clumps on dry flies? Stiff enough to hold the fly probably? A little curl in it to make the fly sit up and seem more real? I couldn't figure out their pricing, somewhere between $6 and $20 for a box of maybe 15-20 clumps? Anyone already tried that? Willing to admit they bought some and now have girly stuff sitting in their tying box next to the fingernail polish? (Sam Nielson)
Has anyone found a source for the Sand Turtle Gleemer Buffer file #115312, it appears to have been discontinued by Sally Beauty Supply? (Tom Vagell) Terry Binns Distribution
Do you folks use the file shaped or the block shaped Sand Turtle Gleamer? (Jerry Madigan) I like the file type for wraps. You can split it in half so you can get two extra edges. I have not tried the blocks. Let me know if you want model numbers or one to try. (Gary Young) There are holes in my knowledge as big as the moon A Sand Turtle Gleemer is a type of fingernail buff that women use to get a perfect finish on their finger nails and rod makers are beginning to use to get a perfect finish on their wraps. Tony Spezio introduced them to many of us at last year's SRG. They are much easier to use than sand paper or rubbing compound with less risk of damaging the wrap threads. (JW Healy) Along with a brace of gleamers thou must receive Tony Spezio turned me onto the "Sand Turtle Gleamer" years ago but availability was troublesome. The demand from the rodmaking community helped resolve the supply issue and they have become much more available in recent years. Along the way I have found another "file gleamer" product that I like to use along with *the* gleamer which I found during those years of "Sand Turtle Gleamer" drought. (Gary Young) Thank you for asking that question. I did not even know how to ask it, let alone in rhyme! Thank you JW for the insight. Now off to ebay to find some. (Sean McSharry) Where do you purchase the files and which ones? Thanks. (Ron Delesky) I just bought some for the first time. I had a little trouble not only finding what I wanted but finding someone that sold them retail at a reasonable price. There were a couple members only places I found and a couple places that wanted $3 apiece. I got the fine grit but there is also a super fine. http://www.nailtechheaven.com/soft-touch-sand-turtle-gleemer-buffer.aspx They also sell a pack of 50 in either fine or super fine. The question I haven’t heard answered yet is how long do they last? Will one do several rods or will several be needed for a single rod? (Tim Wilhelm) JW concisely described their form and usage. A few additional notes may be useful: Sand Turtle Gleemer - Two sided gleamer Buff/Shine. You will find the shine side to fine to be helpful. (Source: Terry Binns Distribution 816 221 9977. There may be a min purchase qty.) ASP no. 154792 Two sided gleamer similar to the Sand Turtle Gleemer brand. (Source: Local Sally beauty shop.) Tropical Shine 707301 fine 400/600 - basically a fine finger file in the same shape/size as the gleamers. (Source: Local Sally beauty shop.) The Tropical Shine is much courser grit which I use very sparingly with a very light touch to prevent cutting straight through the varnish and abrading the silk. I like to split the gleamers lengthwise with tin snips to expose an extra edge and make the gleamer width about the same width of my wraps. I finish wraps with Helmsman. (Which, by the way, seems to have undergone yet another formulation changes.) Use the gleamer between coats after the varnish has thoroughly dried at least 24 hours for thin coats in my climate. I mask up to the edge of the wrap on the rod with tape and lightly buff the tops of the ridges on the wrap to flatten them and enhance fill during the next coat of varnish. I try to use light strokes as not to build up heat and soften the varnish. It will become obvious when you start to use the gleamer as to what works best. I got the idea, and my first well used gleamer, from Tony Spezio. I forget where he received this useful technique. Gleamers can be cleaned and somewhat revived with a rinse under tap water. I usually have a handful at the ready and alternate between them as they build up with varnish dust. (Gary Young) I’m not certain we can buy from Terry Binns. I tried to create an account but didn’t have the necessary information. The site states: “Upon confirmation of your Professional License #, you will have full access to our website.” I don’t know if that means a cosmetologist license or a business license. (Tim Wilhelm) I believe the last time I ordered these from Binns I called directly and during the conversation he asked why I wanted them and I mentioned for rodmaking. (At that point he mentioned his burgeoning market amongst rodmakers). I do not think I created an account. The link you included in a previous post was the correct product (the file form not the block). Are you able to purchase from that site? (Gary Young) Any other sites to order besides Binns, that requires a business license) or Nailtech Heaven? Unfortunately, Nailtech Heaven only has 5 in-stock, and it will cost more to ship ($ 9.95) than item total. Thanks. (Ron Delesky) Yes, I was able to buy from them. I have 30 on the way. They also had the lowest price I’d seen: $1.50 each. I didn’t notice until later that they sell a pack 50 for $63.95. (I guess I need to add usual disclaimer that I’ve have no financial interest in Nail Tech Heaven.) (Tim Wilhelm)
I have been building my first cane rod following the instructions on Harry Boyd's website for a 7'6" 5 wt along with the Maurer/Elser book. I decided to finish the rod with two coats of spar and then wrap guides and varnish the wraps last since I have no room for a dip tube. I poured two coats on the rod, let it set for two weeks, then wrapped the guides. I have two well thinned (50%) coats and two full strength coats on the wraps and I think the rod looks pretty good. There are some nibs on some of the wraps that I'd like to sand smooth but I'm scared to death of screwing things up. I tried to do this once before on a rod I re-wrapped and even with light pressure and fine sand paper destroyed a couple of wraps. How many coats should be on the wraps before sanding? (Joe Aversa) I think I would use a Sand Turtle Gleemer (rough side) to accomplish that. If you don't have that, another very fine nail POLISH board (NOT an emery board) or try 1000 or 1500 grit with a sanding block or board to gently, slowly work them down, being careful. Others will have other suggestions as well. And THANKS for changing the subject... (Marv Loopstra) Does anyone-else use detail grade wood scrapers? (Lewis Bogan) I don't even know what a detail grade wood scraper IS! (Peter McKean) After applying 3 coats of epoxy (or varnish) I sand the wraps VERY lightly with 1200 grit or higher wet/dry sandpaper glued to a 1/4" x 1/16" stick sliced from the power fibers of a piece of cutoff bamboo and use water as the lubricant. If it looks like you are getting too close to the thread stop and put another coat on the wraps. From what you have described, I would guess you have enough coating to be able to sand the wraps flat which will get rid of the "nibs". Then add a coat of very thin varnish to restore the gloss. Enjoy the experience and don't worry about screw ups. Consider them a learning opportunity. Everyone on the list has had plenty of these "opportunities". (JW Healy) If by "nibs" you mean the same thing as I think you mean, I find they can be removed to the point where they are easy to sand flat by using a #10 scalpel blade held, obviously, pretty nearly flat. I find that for this sort of work a blade like a #10 with a long curve on the cutting edge is preferable to a straight-edged blade like a #11. Good luck. A young bloke I was helping get started decided to use A felt wheel and rouge polish on a Dremel for a top job. Not recommended, really!!!!! (Peter McKean) Here's a tip I learned from John Bokstrom: rub the wraps carefully with a Pink Pearl eraser, then wipe them off with thinners and re-varnish. John was extremely fussy about his wraps and I've used his method for many rods. (Ron Grantham) I've used 2000 grit wet/dry automotive Sandpaper glued to Popsicle stick with linseed oil as a lubricant. More than a couple of times I got too close and could see fuzz from thread. I immediately stopped sanding. Lightly singed the fuzz with flame from q-tip soaked in DNA and put on a couple more coats. Now I apply one coat of thinned varnish initially to wraps. The other 3-5 coats I use unthinned varnish. (Jim Sabella) How do people feel about products like Flex Cote Light? I have always tended to steer clear of them, but as the years trundle by, I am wondering why. Some years ago, in absolute desperation to finish the set of wraps from hell I yielded and used a two-part product from a local (Cairns, North Queensland, not REALLY home) tackle shop which I suspect was Flex Cote Light rebadged. It worked really well, and by diluting the devil out of it with acetone I just about avoided the tendency to "high-build" so beloved of the graphite boys. It was a rod intended for me, so not likely to be judged by it. What do others think? (Peter McKean) I have used Flex Coat Lite mixed 50/50 with Acetone (you can also use DNA I’m told) for clear wraps on YLI Natural white. I have used this rod for at least 5 years now with no yellowing of the wraps. Although I’ve never used it on any other rod, the stuff was great for this application. I think it was Harry who mentioned this to me originally. (Tom Vagell) Oh, yes, and dilute with DNA, not acetone! Just as effective and a lot less of a health hazard! (Don Smith) Flex Coat Lite is all I have ever used for my wrapping finish. I am one of those guys who finishes the blank with 12 to 15 coats of tru oil and then wraps, but I know of at least one fellow who finishes with varnish (dip or drain tube) and afterwards wraps and finishes with FC Lite like I do, i.e., after finishing the blank. I first mix equal parts of the resin and hardener per manufacturers instructions. Then I add the same amount of denatured alcohol in the same proportions so that it is 1/3 resin, 1/3 hardener, and 1/3 DNA. I think the DNA starts to evaporate fairly quickly because the mixture gets a little thicker before I finish. I just add several drops of DNA, re-stir and then continue. The mixture stays pretty thin that way. I usually do three coats. And it does not look like the miniature football that you see on graphite rods. The finish is crystal clear. I love the stuff. I do not take credit for this, as it was suggested by others, but I can vouch for the product. (Doug Hojem) I recently started using Flex-coat lite for finishing wraps with natural silk to make them transparent and color silk translucent. Works better than heated varnish IMHO. (Don Smith) I sort of followed everyone's advice and it made a huge difference. I cut any of the thread ends that were long enough with a surgical scalpel. The small bumps I flattened with 2000g glued to a Popsicle stick wet. The advice to go slow here and check often payed off. It was tough for me to see when I was getting close when wet but it was very obvious when dry and saved me from ruining a couple of the wraps. My wife had something in a drawer that has two fine grits on one side and buffer on the other. Not sure what it's called but I used that next. I put a thinned out coat of spar varnish on last and the wraps look pretty darn good. Maybe not pro grade but not bad. I didn't try the eraser trick because I couldn't find one but I'll save that for the next rod. I did mess up my signature though. I've signed the rod at least five times now but can't seem to get the ink to dry properly. I used a Micron pen and signed over the two coats of varnish. I roughed up the surface with 0000 steel wool prior to signing and my plan was to brush on a coat of varnish between the signature wraps after the ink dried. But I haven't gotten that far as even after two nights the ink still smudges. When do you folks sign? I thought the ink might bleed all over the place on the bare cane. Maybe just a sealer? Signature or not I'm trying this baby out Sunday if the weather holds. Mid 50's, tiny olives (28-30), winter caddis and rising Farmington R browns - it doesn't get any better around here in Dec. No way this rod would have turned out as nice without the help I received from forum members. (Joe Aversa) Good work. Wrap finishing has always been the hardest part of rod making for me. As far as signatures go, give the Micron ink enough time to dry and put a coat of varnish over it very gently. If you dip, no problem but if you wipe on the finish it can smear the ink unless you're careful. I use a very soft brush when using a wipe on finish. (JW Healy) Never a problem with signatures on 20 + rods. I use the fine-.25 Micro Pigma on unfinished bamboo-no runs but let dry for at least 24 hours. Then can coat it anyway you desire. (Bob Ratcheson) I like to use India Ink and a selection of old-fashioned steel nibs. Once that dries tou've pretty well got to chip it off with an adze. I find that I have to spend some time on the steel nibs, smoothing and polishing them on a very fine hard Arkansas stone so that they glide over the sufrace without catching in the longitudinal structure of the bamboo surface. Bamboo surface preparation just consists of sanding smooth, the last stage of this being polishing with a slurry of pure Tung Oil and Rottenstone and wiping down well with Artists' Turps. I used to use a Rapidograph drawing pen, but the cleaning out of the bloody thing every time was driving me mad, after such a small piece of writing. Incidentally, the Rapidograph also benefited from a bit of polishing on the old Arkansas stone. (Peter McKean) What I have found through trial and error is this. Once the blank is finished I put on a coat of tung oil as suggested by Harry Boyd. Then after it is fully dried and before any other finish is added i sand off the area that I will sign. I sign in that area and let the ink dry for 48 hours. I finish with hand rubbed tru oil, and so when I start that process I am very gentle as I apply the first two or three coats of tru oil in the area that I have signed. Bt yhe time the second or third coat is dried, the ink seems impervious, and it stays crisp and dark. I can't say what might work with varnish and the usual dipping methods, but I think that appyling the ink at a time when it can still impregnate the bamboo fibers is what makes it work. (Doug Hojem)
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