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I've been asked to make a 6'6", two piece, 3-4 wt rod with a medium-fast to fast taper.  Since I am new to this work I am not yet confident in reading the stress curves to deduce a type of action.

Can anyone offer suggestions and or  comments re: stress values Vs action. My understanding is that the higher the stress value, the "softer" the feel. Yes/No?.  If this is true can one say that a 6'6" rod with a maximum stress of say 180,000 in the tip section will feel the same as an 8'6'' rod with the same maximum stress and the same shape curve?  (Al Baldauski)

You will get some whether it will feel the same or do the same but choosing a rod by viewing those graphs strictly is still guess work. those are general indicators used mainly as comparison. that said, how about the Payne 96.  (Timothy Troester)

Dickerson 6611  (Kyle Druey)

I built a 6'6" 3 wt from Wayne's book a few years ago.  It's a great small stream rod.  I have been very pleased with it.  I don't have the taper here at work, but could post it tomorrow if you don't have Wayne's book.

My finish work was terrible  as I was in a hurry to take it on a trip.  But the fish don't seem to mind that my wraps are ugly.  (Eric Koehler)

Anybody out there fishing an 8’ 3 or 4 wt rod for bream?  I’m looking for a taper that can handle some small poppers and bream bugs but would like to keep it a 3 wt if possible.  Any suggestions welcome.  (Greg Reeves)

Check out this taper.

It makes for a nice 3 wt.  (Scott Bearden)

Have been using my Sir D for Bluegills and Brim, Also takes some Smallmouths on it. It casts poppers as well as dry flies. I have been using it for 10 years. Am real happy with it.  (Tony Spezio)

Well, it's about time I built a rod for myself instead of everyone else. I mainly fish small wild streams here in NC and my go to rod is a 7'-6" 4wt glass Winston. I'd like to make myself a rod for an upcoming trip in April and am looking for suggestions for a good taper. 3 to 4wt, no longer than 7'-6" and fairly quick. Anyone have a favorite taper they would recommend? I know I can come up with something on my own but the list has been slow today and I thought this might spark some conversation.  (John Smith)

In that range of parameters, I like the Garrison 204e for a 4 wt, and for a 3/4wt I like the Payne 97.  (Mike McClain)

Driggs, or the Sir D mod.  Great taper!  7ft 2 inch 4 wt. (Robert Clarke)

On second reading of your note, Driggs is not quick, but awesome taper. (Robert Clarke)

Certainly not an authority, but I enjoy a Dickerson 7012 and Young Midge taper on small streams. (Larry Tucker)

My vote would be for the Sir. D.  I've been using one for 3 or 4 years, and it works great on NC streams.  (Paul Gruver)

I don't think you could go wrong with a PHY Perfectionist. I use mine a lot on Black Hills streams and small creeks in Nebraska. Having said that, I would have to note that I've also used all the rods recommended so far and they are all good, too. Guess I'm not that much help. Heck, why not make 'em all.  (Larry Myhre)

Sir D. (Mark Heskett)

Agree with the Sir D.  (Pete Emmel)

Sir D for me too. I really enjoy mine.  (Mike Monsos)

On small, brushy streams in Wisconsin or in the Black Hills, I like a version of the Paul Young Midge quickened a little.  (Jim Sobota)

Driggs river or Payne 98. Sweet rods. Sir D ok. Made all three. Driggs would be 1 Payne 2 then maybe sir d. Also Payne 101 but its a 5 weight. (Rick Barbato)

One of the Paynes - 97 or 98. (Peter McKean)

I agree. the 98 is a very adept rod but I love the 97. I also really like the midge. I haven't fished these two rods alot as I have never been able to keep one.   (Timothy Troester)

Really sounds like a Payne 101, it's quick and responsive. (Graham Foxman)

Thanks for all the suggestions on making my personal rod. Looks like I need to make at least 5 rods for myself. After the doctor finishes examining my wallet this morning, I will try to get a count of the suggested rods and I will send out the results.  (John Smith)

Looks like Sir D was the favorite among those who responded. Thanks!  (John Smith)

I am new on rod building. This year I have built with a lot of help a Garrison 201e fly rod. It is my first rod that I have built, and for me it looks good.

For my second rod I would like to build a 6 ft, 3-4 wt, with a fast taper. I think that this should be a nice small rod, with an excellent way off presentation a fly.

On the internet there are a lot of tapers you can find, but there is not a lot off information over the way the rod should behave. Is it fast or is it slow, I really don't know.

Is here someone that will share that kind of taper? Or is here someone that can explain some tapers that can be found on the Internet (is it a slow or a fast taper). (Jan Huisman (5/18/2016))

A Payne 98 would be a good place to start for what you've described.

Search the list archives for fast and slow discussions.  Contemporary bamboo rods are much more complex than the typical "fast or slow" graphite rod.  The best way to learn the differences is to fish them. (David Bolin)

You might also consider a Paul Young Midge. (Larry Tucker)

That is a great rod.  I made that in 2 PC as my 2nd Rod & 3 PC as my 3rd rod. (Bret Reiter)

You might also consider the Lee Wulff Midge.  One of my favorite rods. (Hal Manas)

A proper #3 rod is very hard to design without having to make compromises that detract from basic principles and which I find unacceptable.

#4 rods are possible, although you do need to be careful in the making and care of the extreme tip, which also may need to be a bit thinner than most production planing forms will allow. I have never, ever, really found a genuine need for a rod under seven feet because a seven foot#4 has always seemed to me to be pushing the concept of a fly rod right to its lowest limits. But some like challenges and playing about with the edge of impossible, why should they not?

As you are a beginner, relatively speaking, you may find it less frustrating if you proceed slowly!

Finally, what do YOU call fast? (Robin Haywood)

"Festina lente!" Is really the best advice for people learning to build rods, and I could not agree with you more.

So often we see someone ask what taper would be suitable for them to build as a first, or second, or third rod, and in about a nanosecond he finds himself enmeshed in a discussion or complex curves, stress diagrams and whatever other esoteric material you can think of.

What a rod builder at that stage wants is a taper that has relatively regular change of dimension, is not too demanding on either his planing technique or his forms by lacking extreme butt swells or other "humps", and will reward him and his exertions with a rod that looks nice and casts well. He is still at that stage where watching the bamboo come off in long, even curls gives him a huge thrill.

We ought not confuse them, nor, as you suggest, set them difficult manual tasks as in excessively fine tips or grossly swollen butts.

And yes, it IS pretty difficult to see any real need for rods shorter than 7'0". And most of the 3-weights are really 4-weights in drag! (Peter McKean)

Good points!

To which I might only add that before one becomes a researcher it is essential to have a firm grounding in basic principles, and before one seeks to bend or break the rules one had jolly well better understand them first!

To return to my question: What is a fast taper? (Robin Haywood)

This has an illustration delineating the different actions of a rod.  Very basic stuff.  I'm baffled by people who ask this.  If what you're looking for is some amorphous metaphysical argument over differing existential experiences of rod action, I'll be happy to step aside and observe.  Or not observe, since I'm easily bored by boring things.  In the name of pragmatism, we do require some language by which we may understand these things and communicate same.  Perfect accuracy is hardly to be expected, although generalities should be.  I think Wittgenstein would agree, were he here.  Taper theory can get quite complex, especially in the realm of bamboo where almost anything goes, but there has to be some generally agreed upon area that we call a starting point.  For rod action, whatever the material used, this has all been known and accepted for centuries now.  Rocking the boat only gives you a rocky boat. (Bob Brockett)

I know that a lot of rods can rollcast when there is water to provide drag, but one of the best ways I found to fish the Smokies was to strip line out into a pile in front of me and then push rollcast to rollover the line and get it upstream. This pretty far up, along the really small streams, where the rhododendrons hang far enough over the streams that even casting downstream is pretty iffy. Need suggestions on anything under 7'6" and around 3 or 4 wt. Maybe somebody has the taper for a slow Divine that would do this?  (Bill Walters (9/18/2016))

That 7' #3-#4 listed in The Lovely Reed I was asking the name of on the list a month or so back is well worth a try.

I'm no roll cast master but I have been using that rod a few times since I made it and again yesterday and I was making some casts that it was nothing short of a damned shame that I was the only one there to watch.

One spot was under a long, overhanging branch 40 feet away that I'd tried to cast under in the past with no joy but I managed it several times just for fun yesterday. The loops were tight, and the line was laying out like I knew what I was doing.

I didn't catch anything, but it was entirely beside the point yesterday :-) (Tony Young)

One of the best roll casters I’ve ever used is the Young Driggs taper from Ron Barch.  I’m traveling & don’t have access to it now otherwise I’d post it.  Maybe someone else could post it. (Paul Julius)

I have that taper from The Planing Form. What I am looking for is 4 wt and the Driggs taper I have is a 5 wt. I just made a 6'6" version of a Midge that is shaping up to be a light 5wt (just like the original PHY Midge the numbers were originally taken from. It rollcasts great, but it's not a 3 or 4wt. (Bill Walters)

It's funny but the rod taper I've been using but wanted a lighter rod to take the place of at times is the Driggs.

It's a nice taper but a bit heavy for small streams and tight spots. (Tony Young)

You can use Hexrod to take the Driggs down to a a 3 or 2 wt. if you want.  I made it into a 3 wt. & it worked nicely. (Paul Julius)

Except in my case I was specifically not wanting a parabolic action rod for this use. I find that when you have room to cast a para is very nice but when you have varying distances and conditions you're always adjusting the cast style to suit to try to load the rod and in closer than they're made for they just don't work all that well.  You end up in a situation where the line weight never seems to be right at the time. (Tony Young)

I am finally ready & prepped to getting around to putting the plane to some strips soon and although I have considered a few tapers I "thought" best for my needs I find that I should fill a gap in my rod needs for the first one.

Could someone point me in the direction of a taper that meets my interest:

~7ft -ish
3 pcs
4/5 wt line. (Scott Allman (6/30/2016))

Does it really have to be a three piece?

It is impossible to make a three-piece metal ferruled cane rod that is as nice as a two piece would be.

Unless one is utterly inept at converting one to the other, of course, but this is not your problem. If you are used to modern rods traditional designs will feel very floppy. They were designed to cast soggy silk lines very short distances  this is not a very difficult pair of parameters to achieve,in fact they nearly all do it,more or less,and most of the tapers were merely guessed at,as you can see from Hexrod.

Go for a modern taper with a light tip, by which I mean garish taper on the top 25%, and a correspondingly stiffish lower third.

You are going to spend a lot of time on this, your first rod, and you don't want to produce a useless horror. (Robin Haywood)

I am finally ready & prepped to getting around to putting the plane to some strips soon.

Hi Scott - I do have to more or less agree with Robin and would also suggest sticking with a two piece rod at first. One set of ferrules is enough for a beginner to worry about. I would suggest a smooth, medium action taper to start with, so you can start trying to figure out what you really like. There are a lot of 7’ 4 weights tapers around. My own favorite in that category is the Garrison 202e. I would also suggest that you attend the Catskill gathering in September, if at all possible. There will be a lot of hands on things going on, and you will get to see and do things that might otherwise take a long time to learn. If you want an introduction to the terminology of rod tapers, there is an essay at this location.

Ignore the flowery BS Gene wrote about me, he is a well known prevaricator. The article was written for people starting out with no knowledge of tapers at all.  (Tom Smithwick)

I am maybe the only bamboo fisherman who is not fond of most PHY tapers that I have tried, and I do include the Sir D in that category.

This is NOT a criticism of the PHY rods and their derivatives; I am a solidly crappy caster, and I think I just don't quite synch with the timing of these rods.

The rod I would suggest, just to help round out the range from which you must select, is the Payne 98. I have made several, and it seems to me to be a pretty forgiving taper, where some small inaccuracies in planing do not render the rod useless. As well as being a poor caster, I also admit to not being absolutely on the money every strip I plane. I keep it as accurate as I can, but I am blowed if I achieve the sort of compliance with the numbers that many rodbuilders manage to produce.

So at least have a look at the Payne tapers, as they, too, have stood the test of time. (Peter McKean)

It occasionally happens that I agree 100% with Peter and in this case, I do.

Try the Payne 98. It's a great taper.

Having said that I do like the Driggs and the Sir D too. The Sir D is a forgiving taper that's very nice but the Driggs is not really forgiving. It's kind of hard to get a handle on at first and there are times it's not the ideal taper.

I currently find myself fishing a lot in places where I need a #4 or #5 and use a Driggs taper rod that I've had for about 20 years and I've concluded that I need a different taper that isn't a parabolic. 

The casting is usually inside of 35 or so feet and often under cover that isn't tight, just above me and pockets absoluteyl everywhere. It's bloody beautiful water to fish, being a mountain stream the fish are all small, I doubt there's a 3 lb fish in the entire system, not that I expect to ever see anyhow.

What's really needed is a responsive light rod that doesn't misbehave, and I rather wish I still had my Payne 98 so I'm about to do something about that and make another.

Good place to ask the question though. Has anybody made and used the F.E Thomas listed in The Lovely Reed?

I've never tried a true #3 before, never imagined I'd ever want to to be honest but I was thinking this one may be a nice one for the location I just described. (Tony Young)

I made the FE Thomas 6'8" 3-wt about 15 years ago, and only fished it once.  I caught a 12" (30cm to you) trout on it and felt that it completely overpowered the rod.  I managed to land the fish, but it made me uncomfortable.  I decided that I didn't need a 3-wt and haven't fished anything lighter than a 4-wt since.  I sold the rod to a guy who was absolutely delighted with it.  But, I don't think he intended to fish it.

Interesting bit about that taper though: in the book, Jack Howell claimed that Darryl Whitehead said it was the best 3-wt he's ever cast.  Darryl came to Corbett Lake six or eight years ago, and told us that he didn't fish, and wouldn't have any idea if a rod cast well or not. (Robert Kope)

Anthony Vincent Young, you are a gentleman and a scholar, and you have impeccable taste.

Sorry, cannot help with the FE Thomas. I did, though make a kind of chimera rod using two Wayne Cattanach 6' tapers, one 3 weight and one 4 weight. What I did was use the butt from the 4 weight, appropriately reduced in most stations, with the tip from the lighter rod beefed up a bit toward the butt end stations. I know it sounds odd, but it is a helluva good little rod when I want a six footer (which is very seldom) and it sort of suits my mongrel casting style. Also made a half dozen for various people in Victoria, and they all liked them. (Peter McKean)

Well that's very kind of you Peter.

I think I'd like to stay with a 7 foot or or very close to it, not more though. The Driggs is just a little too long to be comfortable at times but the main problem is I need to use a #5 to get it to load in these conditions and it's more than I want.

These streams have plenty of room across them and are occasionally reasonably wide so something longer than 6.5 feet is good, but the trees can get close to the surface of the water in places. If they get too close I just pass that section by. I find that the 6'3" rod I've used there doesn't work quite so well for fishing soft hackles, fine for dry though.

Small rods are very handy here in Victoria. So is a horse at times because these valleys can be STEEP! (Tony Young)

Your stream sounds like the streams we fish in the mountains of Tennessee. I have found that it works to have at least a 7-footer, strip the amount of line out the tiptop you figure you'll need, with it dragging downstream or piled at your feet and then launch a rollcast upstream to place the fly in the plunge pool or area of current. Does the Payne 98 taper rollcast well enough to get about 30 feet out that way? A lot of times there isn't sufficient clear area anywhere to get a casting lane, even downstream. (Bill Walters)

Most of this stream is quite wide, hardly ever gets to < 25 feet but the banks are completely covered to the degree that the only way along the stream is in the stream and it has a high flow for most of the year. So, the line really needs to stay out of the water as much as possible unless you're actually fishing it else you drown the fly all the time. It's like that for about 20 miles so it's worth a rod specifically for this spot.

I like longer rods as a rule, but the trees spend a lot of time just high enough overhead to be a problem with a 7-1/2" rod but a rod of < 7 foot isn't so good due to the flow of the stream especially if I use soft hackle flys that work well there. I own a 6'3" rod that I've used there and although it may seem a short rod would be better it won’t cover the water properly in this place. The shorter rod is fine for straight up and down casting, but line drag is an instant problem for anything other than that.

The Driggs is about the right length, but being a 4/5 weight rod casting in close it needs a #5 to load and that's what I sort of remember about the Payne 98 as well from the ones I've made in the past, it's a 4/5 so if I made one of them I'd likely be back to using a #5 line to load it in close which is why I'm looking for a light #4, I think a #3 would be struggling there. 

The fish aren't big, the normal range discounting the real tiddlers is 11"-15" and combined with the flow I think a #3 would struggle, people have privately written to me about the FET and that confirms it in my mind.

Anyhow, thank you to everybody who has offered help with this. My initial instinct was to just make a Dickerson 7012 because I already have a stable full of Dickerson taper rods just nothing this light, Harry has suggested a Granger and that may well be a good choice since I've never made one. (Tony Young)

I think you might like this one Cattanach Sir D 7643. (JW Healy)

"One man's meat is another man's poison"...and so it is with tapers.  I happen to enjoy the Sir D and the Garrison 202e is another great taper.  I also readily admit that I'm not all that familiar with the Payne 98.  To echo several other comments, I also suggest you stick with a 2-pc rod as your first project.  You'll stress out enough on your first rod and going from 2 to 3 pc's will only add to that.  You want this to be a positive experience, not one that frustrates you to no end (although I, too, get frustrated at times. (Cliff Nigh)

Something us older rod-makers seems to forget to tell the new guys is to wear leather gloves while splinting and planing the strips. I find leather gloves locally for around $6.00 a pair. I have never kept track of how many rods you can plane before having to throw them away, but it is 3 or 4 rods. Well worth it if you have ever gotten bite by bamboo. Trust me, it will be a good investment, next to a Hock blade. (Lew Boyko)

Gloves must be hand-crafted from leather acid tanned by beautiful women from the belly skin of a basset hound X standard poodle, raised to maturity on a diet of chicken giblets and macrobiotic rice. The animal must be killed by embarrassment by having to wear a woollen waistcoat decorated with glittery pom-poms, at twenty years of age.

No other will do! (Peter McKean)

See, Peter! This is exactly why I never wear gloves while working with bamboo. There are no poodle/hound crosses where I live, and wearing gloves is wimpy anyway.

I much prefer my arsenal of duct tape, band aids, tweezers, and super glue depending on the severity.

Reminds me that wifey wasn't too happy with me at the boy child's wedding a couple years ago dressed in a tux with band aids on three fingers! Boy child's future in-laws were appalled! (Tom Vagell)

I use some cheap work gloves that I got at Sam's Club.  They are leather with a stiff cloth wrist guard.  I have long sense forgotten the brand name, but they work.  It is mostly the left glove that gets sliced to bits, but it is better than my left hand getting sliced like it used to.  That was good advice. (Hal Manas)

I have been watching all these comments while laughing to my self.  The gloves I buy are from Menard's here in Minnesota and they are from pig skin. While planing bamboo, and things start getting really sharp edges, you should hear them squeal And it is not oink, oink either... (Lew Boyko)

OK, all bull aside, you could consider this as a partial solution.

I elevate my forms a couple of inches above the bench, and insert supports here and there to minimise bending. I also raise the LHS end to reduce stress on my back as I plane. 

Then I clamp the plece of bamboo in place with a pair or two of those spring-loaded clamps in the appropriate size. There is a fair amount of opening and closing as the strip is turned over from side to side, but your hand soon gets strong enough to cope ( and I am 74 y.o. and osteoarthritic, so if I can do it, anybody can).

There are things about the deal that are less than ideal, but it means no cuts. (Peter McKean)

I follow Peter's regimen closely (raising the forms, using clamps, etc) but have not tried elevating the LHS end to reduce back ache.  Clever idea and I must try that next time around.  Thanks for the thought! (Cliff Nigh)

I also elevate my forms and use a spring clamp to hold the strip in place and thus have no need for gloves or finger protectors when I am planing. I usually plane two handed, pulling the plane as much as pushing it--all works fine for me. (Mike McGuire)

It was a young friend of mine who builds cane rods, and does really nice rattan grips (apropos of nothing) who suggested the raising of the LHS end of the forms; he is a physiotherapist by profession, so I thought it worth a try.

I find it very difficult to evaluate things like that, but as a general feeling it does appear to spare my back to some extent. I have quite severe ankylosing spondylitis, and my spine looks like a Bavarian pretzel at best, but my feeling is that I plane in greater comfort.

I raise the end about 2 - 2 1/2".

Hope someone finds it useful, anyway. (Peter McKean)

I have heard of other folks raising the left-hand side of the form and think I will give it a try. My question is being I am right handed and plane from right to left on the form, should not the right-hand side be raised.

Also, how many shims do you put under the form to keep it steady.

If I raised the left-hand side of the form, I would be planing uphill. Just wondering. (Lew Boyko)

The way I understand it, and I too plane right to left, is that when you are approaching the end of your planing stroke (at the left-hand end), you are having to reach out to make the distance, and also to dip down in order to increase your lateral reach.

Raising the end a couple of inches tends ro eliminate the need to make this reaching-down action, and in doing so it reduces the strain on back, shoulders and arms. (Peter McKean)

If you are planing the full length of the strip and you have your left hand on your strip at the beginning of your planing stroke, hesitate your stroke long enough to move your hand up to the position of the plane, then continue you stroke. It simply does not make sense to me to make this reaching exercise. I cannot see how you expect to control your planing this way unless you are at least 7 or 8 feet tall or your planing bench is only knee high! (Don Smith)

One of the nice things about using the clamps is that once the strip is secure, you can break the actual planing stroke into as many aliquots as you choose.

I just think that I need as much working for me as I can get, and following the physio's suggestion cannot hurt, and seems to help. But, sure, you could do it any number of ways, and your suggestion would certainly work. (Peter McKean)

I never tried it, but I used to think doing what the Morgan Mill guys do would work. Plane the pith of the bamboo to a flat parallel with the enamel and screw this to a stop that goes against the bottom of the forms.

You could plane as hard as you like with an iron as blunt as a spoon then and things would stay in place. (Tony Young)