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Rod Design - Swelled Butts

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Does the swell under the grip, make a difference. (Larry Downey)

The answer is, well, it depends.  On slow tapers that readily flex all the way into the grip, it matters.  On faster tapers with distinct swells above the cork, it probably doesn't matter.  Like many things in making rods, the swell under the grip is one more of those thousand details that might or might not make a big difference all by themselves, but when added together with the other 999, definitely makes a difference.

In practice, I usually keep the largest three stations on butts at the same diameter. (Harry Boyd)

I think the swell that makes the biggest difference is the one holding the grip.  (Timothy Troester)

I have an old post in my files regarding the Para 14. There is a comment after the taper "works great with a swelled butt". You are right- a swell would give a different action, but someone liked it.  (Jeff Schaeffer)

All it needs is an .086 tip to balance the swell. And I bet someone would love it..is that the definition of a Para  14 clone?  (Jerry Foster)

Pretty sure George Maurer was the person who made the comment regards to the swelled butt for the Para 14. James Wilcox also provided a taper for Power Fibers #4 called the Montanan which was a 7'6" 3 piece 5 wt derived from a Para 14 which also included a swelled butt.  (Callum Ross)

I have been fiddling around with these things since Jeff was kind enough to send me a lot of helpful stuff on inlays.

There is no doubt, they look marvelous;  and  I am sure you could use the morticing technique on any rod designed for a big butt swell, although even there the effect on the overall flexion of the rod is likely to be dramatic.

But to put them onto rods built to a "normal" (sic) taper seems a bit incomprehensible, and even more so on tapers which are parabolic in design.

In my opinion, if you build a 7'6" rod with a pronounced butt swell, you have built a 6'8" rod.  Ditto with the morticed rods.  That's OK, you just have to be aware of it.

One last point, re all the discussion about the strength of binding pressure needed in these morticed rods - it all depends on the degree to which you want to swell them.

Moderation in all things is the answer, here as in so many other fields.  If your inserts are compatible in swell with the profile of the cane, there is no problem with binding pressure.  If you try to whack in six bits with a cross section like a door stopper you are in more trouble  than Ned Kelly's chiropractor!  (Peter McKean)

What about this. I jut built a rod with a Payne 101 taper. This is a really fast action rod and I doubt if it flexes much if any more than two thirds down the length at best. I wouldn't think that a swelled but would have any effect other than visual on this type of rod.  (Martin Jensen)

If you try a heavy duty Dickerson you'll hardly notice any difference at all.   (Tony Young)

If you have a Payne 101 which only flexes two thirds down the length, then it's probably the only one!

Seriously, though, if you have a 101 and it is only flexing to that extent, it is because your style  of casting, your general mode of fishing, does not force the rod to bend any further.

So in your case, you could swell the butt as much as you want without any deleterious effect at all to your stroke.  In fact, if you use any rod which doesn't flex down low, you can swell it as much as you like.  Also, there are tapers which were designed with swelled butts, some of the old Leonards for example.

But certainly on the 101's  that I build, a severe swell or a set of inlays will virtually stop the action at a point 10" or so short of where it is designed to stop. It is true that this may well produce an action in that particular rod that the user may prefer, but one must consider the question of stress points.  (Peter McKean)

What wt line do you fish with? To be honest with you I have only "house" cast this rod as it's new hasn't cured yet, but whipping it around in the house, it felt like a very fast action rod. I have 2 other fast action rods and they all felt very similar . I typically like action slow action rods better. Everything I have read about this rod says it would be a good rod for "graphite" users, which is why I built it. I am going to sell it. It will be pretty easy to let go as it's not my style of rod but I figured it would have a better market than one of the types of rods I like to fish. For a fast action rod, it's not bad.  (Martin Jensen)

There is a Payne 101 taper on the Rod DNA database from George Maurer which has a much softer butt with a short swell of about .035 in the last 5" before the grip.  (Doug Easton)

I will have to check it out to see how it compares with the taper I used. I'm starting to think that if there are a lot of differences in these tapers about ll I can really say is "I built a rod based on a Payne 101 taper".... I know I have seen at least 2 different tapers for this rod and would have thought that originally a Payne 101 was one and only one taper. (At least for the length)  (Martin Jensen)

The Payne 101 has a swelled butt starting at 60". That's why it is a fast rod.  (Bob Norwood)

So, just to start an argument, how many different Payne 101's are there and will the real Payne 101 please step forward??? I would think that there could only be one, no? I mean if the 101 designation stood for a design and was used across different lengths (like the Granger Victory model  was sold in different lengths) I could understand this.

I really don't know on this but I would think that there was only one Payne 101 and it was a 7.5 ft'er? As I say I have seen at least 2 different tapers. One supplied by Dennis Higham and I'm at a loss for the name of the other supplier right now.  (Martin Jensen)

When I decided to make a 101 for a young fellow just getting started in fly fishing, I got seven different tapers. I went with Higham's taper as  it came from the original that Dennis had me cast.  (Tony Spezio)

Thanks, I used the Dennis Higham supplied taper also. I used another taper supplied by him years ago but I forget which one it was. I think I got it from him when we were up at Corbett Lake rodmakers group.  (Martin Jensen)

Has anyone made a Para 14 with a swelled butt? How much of a swell did you use and how far in front of the grip?  (Bill Walters)

Wouldn't building a parabolic rod (which to my understanding is full flex from tip into the handle) with a swelled butt drastically alter the action by stopping the energy in front of the grip and sending it back toward the tip?  (Will Price)

Which of the Paul young Para 14 are you looking at? From what I can see there are two versions and they are not quite the same. One was posted by George Maurer and one by Chris Obuchowski.

If it's the one by George M, then you might look at the taper by Chris Bogart called the Shenandoah Supreme part 2. It's a 7'6" Para with a swelled butt and looks quite like the PY Para 14. You might check it out.   (Bob Norwood)