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Rod Design - Balance Point

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Where do folks prefer to balance a rod (with reel and line mounted)?  I'm most comfortable balancing at the index finger with a key grip.  I've read recently where someone balanced graphite rods in the middle of the grip.  That seems really close to the butt of the rod.  The reason I ask - I'm calculating swing weight in my taper database.  One or two inches will make a big difference in the calculation.  I've been using nine inches from the butt as the estimated location of the index finger.  Is that reasonable?  (David Bolin)

Given the choice, I like the rod to balance on my second finger, but I also like my index  finger to hook around the end of the grip.

When fishing, though, I've found that the balance doesn't really mean much.  The amount of line out, and the drag of the stream on the line all over ride any delicate balancing I may have done. 

Getting the proper line weight, so the rod loads effortlessly, is far more important.  (Paul Gruver)

I think that this balance point thing is a bit overemphasized. Some flyfishing store  salesman may have started the whole thing. As long as the reel is somewhere near appropriate for the rod, it will be OK. As soon as there is a bit of line in the air, the whole balance thing changes. Many old-time tournament casters didn't use reels on their rods. They just spooled off a bunch of line and put the reel down or in their pocket.

I have a customer who was unhappy with his 8' 6 wt Orvis Battenkill because it didn't cast well. He had a huge saltwater reel, probably a 9 wt loaded with a WF6. Well, that was the extreme of a too-heavy reel. I took the reel off and spooled out some line, put the reel on the ground, and the rod cast great. He was happy that there was nothing wrong with the rod and I probably lost a sale.

I've never seen anyone casting a rod balanced on a finger.  (Steve Weiss)

I had a fella come into the store a few years back. He had gone to the west and flyfished last summer and the guide told him what a quick learner he was and a casting prodigy, in just a single day.  He came in to critique our sage rods he had read about. Well, to make a long story long, "Sage rods cast like crap!" (also very poorly balance).  We finally talked him in to a couple hours of instruction and it was just amazing how much those sage rods improved.  In just 2 hours!  Quick studies they was. Yep! Yep! Yep!  It's as true as I'm sitting here!  (Timothy Troester)

It is a proven fact that some rods are smarter than others. Now the casters, that’s another subject all together. (Ray Wallace)

Hmm, I suppose I accidentally pushed a on.  The idea was to standardize the COG and calculate the balancing weight at the butt as a proxy for MOI (modulus of inertia).  Swing weight is a common term for MOI as it is applied to golf clubs, tennis rackets and baseball bats.  Maybe I should just calculate the MOI and forget the weight thing.  As I understand it, MOI doesn't change as weight is added to the butt anyway.  The COG changes but not the MOI.  MOI would be useful when comparing the strength to weight ratio of several tapers.  Just because a rod weighs less overall does not mean that it will be lighter in hand, like a baseball bat.  MOI might also indicate how a rod will recover compared to other tapers.  A higher MOI might not recover as well as a lower MOI for the same line weight.  (David Bolin)

I went steelhead fishing for an afternoon a few days ago with my 8'6" 7wt. I love this rod as it works perfectly except that it is tip heavy and after several hours of fishing I can really start to feel it.  I have played with adding weight to balance it out but it then becomes too heavy so I accept the way that it is and only fish it for a few hours.  Fast forward to yesterday. I had a long wait in my doctor’s office so I grabbed Vince's book the Ring and the Rise. I have had the book for awhile but have not had a chance to read it. I went to chapter 4, “Rod function and design.” Vince states that "there can be no such thing as a balance point in a fly rod". I understand where he is coming from in the sense that when casting the balance point is constantly changing, but he also states that you should use the lightest reel possible to gain the most velocity while casting. Ok there too but what about the rest of the time you are fishing. I know I am not casting 100% of the Time I am fishing. It got me to thinking. I like a rod and reel combination the balance in my hand even if it might hamper my casting a little. I know the longer the rod the greater chance for it to be tip heavy.  I have a few questions.  Is the balanced feel of a rod something you look for when choosing a taper? Do you use older style reels or the light weight reels that are made today?I'm considering hollow building a rod and am wondering what that does to the balance? Any other thoughts  or information on the subject balance,feel, casting and how they relate to each other.   I'm just a guy who likes to build rod and fish but I am also curious on how and why things work.  All thoughts, theory's, scientific answers? All welcome. (Rick Barbato)

Vince is right as to balance/weight when casting, the reason tournament casters coil the line on the ground and don't use reels. I tried to follow Mr. Marinaro's advice, but found the lighter-but-tip-heavier rod was still tiring after a while. (Henry Mitchell)

I like to cast with 6" grips, because I can put my hand on the cork more consistently, so when I am walking with the rod (usually pointing backward opposite of a Norwegian compass) I am usually holding it on the cane.  Don't like it, but so far hasn't affected the rod.  I guess if you want to balance it between two fingers just put more cork rings ($) on.  Gary Borger talks about getting his hand as close to the reel as possible when casting, so maybe uplocking makes sense.  I just like the cigar better than the western.  (Dave Kemp)

Where do people get their ideas?  I have been tournament casting (though usually with graphite) for about 10 years now and I can not recall seeing a single tournament caster without a reel, at least not while accuracy casting.  And in Angler's Fly which is the only distance event close to normal fly casting, often casters are required to have the line on the reel when they start, though as you say we strip it onto the dock.  But not for balance.  For distance you need to shoot the line, which you can not do from the reel, and for accuracy you can not maintain a consistent stroke while stripping off the reel.I am not arguing against your views of balance, but please it appears you misunderstand tournament casting. (Dan Zimmerlin)

Technically Vince and Gary are absolutely correct, in fact all rods cast better without a reel on them and even better if they have no mass whatsoever.Its sunny, my labradors need a swim, so I must go.I can explain more on Gary and Vinces view, but busy today with grandchildren, cannot unfortunately help with the problem of zero mass rods. Perhaps one of those who scream at me whenever they disagree may be able to help, for presumeably they are teenagers and therefore know everything! (Robin Haywood)

I don't know much about tournament casting but if it is like other sporting events I'm sure the equipment is refined for its specific use. I raced bicycles for many years and the bikes I raced on we're not the same as the one I road daily. They were set up specifically for the event I was taking part in.

I guess what I was getting at as a rod builder and fisherman I was surprised at Vince's statement.

To take a race day mentality to the stream.  Focus on one thing and not the whole picture. To simplify my question is balance in a rod that will be used for a full days fishing important? (Rick Barbato)