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There have been several questions in the past about the differences between URAC and Unibond and the only difference I have found is in the instructions on the can. The URAC instructions included a heat treating/dry regimen and the Unibond does not. Just curious if any of you guys would heat treat Unibond and if so, what regimen would you use? (John Smith) The only advantage to heating a URAC/Unibond joint is to speed the cure. Unless you need to work on a section in a couple of hours rather than overnite, it’s not necessary. Everything that I’ve read about Unibond suggests that it’s the same as URAC so I ASS U ME it responds to heat curing the same way. Epoxies, on the other hand, benefit from both a speedup in cure as well as an increase in tensile strength from heat curing. (Al Baldauski)
Has anyone been using Unibond with diluted Ammonia Chloride as a hardener rather than the supplied Walnut Powder Hardener? What concentrations are you using? I ask because the Unibond packaging warns against using any other hardener, other than the new formulation hardener that is currently shipped with the Unibond. This leads me to believe that there is a different concentration of Ammonia Chloride in the current hardener than in the old Urac formulations.FYI...I found a place up in Maine that has great prices on Unibond 800, and low shipping. The price for a 1/2-gallon incl. shipping was less than the quart price anywhere else I could find. (Mike Biondo) I talked to the guy @ Vacupress about using Ammonium Chloride for Unibond and he thought a mixture similar to that used for Urac would work. He did say to try it first in a test trial way. I haven't tried although I do have some of the product .. (David Van Burgel) I've used UB on about a dozen rods now and I used Nh4Cl crystals mixed with just enough water to dissolve them. It works the same as Urac. I did find the rod to still be a little tacky after 24 hrs, so I now wait 2 days before I strip it. I like it a lot longer pot life and it seems to clean off the nodes a little better than Urac. (Jerry Foster) I have been anxiously awaiting this thread to come up since I just ran out of my last supply of URAC. I have been using amonium chloride as the Urac catalyst at 1% by weight. Is this the same mix ratio for Unibond? My next glue up session will be on a student's rod and I don't want to screw things up for him. (Lou Barbaro) I have used Unibond on several strips now and it seems to behave much the same as Urac. I use the same water and Nh4Cl solution I think it is 1% by weight. Have not noticed any longer drying times, but I dry in an oven i use for making bows at about 90 degrees. It did seem to be a little harder on the skin, but I am not sure about that, I have only used it twice.I was getting it at three rivers, but I will be ordering next batch using the link Mike provided. (Ray Zesch)
I've been out of the rod making hobby for the last couple of years and just started back last week. I anticipate gluing up my "first" rod in about a week. I went to pick up a new can of Urac and found that it is no longer available. I will be buying the replacement Unibond 800. Does it matter what color walnut shell to order for a flamed vs. blonde rod? Also, on the other 20 rods I made and used Urac, I didn't use the walnut flour. I used straight ammonium chloride. Does this work with the U800 as well? (Greg Reeves) I, also, was forced to switch from URAC to Unibond. I quit using the walnut powder with URAC and went with straight amonium chloride at 1% by weight. I have done test joints in wood scraps and have successfully glued up one rod with Unibond. I added amonium chloride at 1% and it reacted exactly as did URAC. I weighed the Unibond resin with a powder scale and came up with 19.0 grains per CC. The URAC resin weighed out at 18.2 grains per CC. A cured cube of Unibond looks exactly like that of URAC. As best as I can tell they are basically the same. Therefor, if you are mixing 20 CC's of resin you have 380 grains by weight, and you should add to it 3.8 grains of amonium chloride to get the 1% catalyst ratio. (Lou Barbaro)
A while back someone kindly posted a source for Unibond 800 that retailed for a very good price, I thought I had bookmarked it but can't seem to locate it. If you are that guy and remember where it was I'd really appreciate seeing that link again. (Lee Slikkers) These guys have it here in Maine. (David Van Burgel)
I know this is an old subject, but need to order new supply of glue to rodmaking. I have used Urac 185 in the past. So, have any of you used its replacement, Unibond 800 and how did you like it. If not what would you recommend. (Lew Boyko) Used it today but I don't have a ton of experience with either so I'm probably not the best guy to listen too. However, I did like the option to mix it 15 to 1 for a bit more open, working time. Mixed up fine, set up nice so no complaints on this end. (Lee Slikkers) It was a sad day for me when I used up my last bit of URAC. Since then I have been gluing up with Unibond. I cannot tell any difference in it's chemical makeup. I activate it with 1% amonium chloride as I did URAC. It spreads and dries like URAC. So far I am pleased with the Unibond replacement. (Lou Barbaro) Every rodmaker I have broached this subject with says it is an exact duplicate for Urac 185 in all respects. They see no difference in performance what-so-ever, and are very pleased with it. (Jed Dempsey)
I know there have been discussions about Unibond on the list before, but I can't seem to locate them now. I was wondering if anyone has used ammonium chloride as a hardener vs. the supplied hardener. And if the supplied hardener is powered walnut husks like the older Urac hardener. I have talked to Nelson paint but didn't get the answers I was looking for. (Larry Tusoni) I have glued up several rods with Unibond. It acts the same as URAC. I activate the Unibond with ammonium chloride crystals as I did with the Urac. I weighed the Unibond resin and came up with 19.0 grains per 1cc. I activate it with a 1% by weight of the AC crystals. For example: 20cc of resin = 380 grains. I activate this amount of resin with 3.8 grains of AC. I do not dilute the crystals with water. I have not used the powder that was supplied with the Unibond but it appears to be the same as the URAC powder. The Unibond powder does seem to be ground a little finer than the URAC powder. Hope this helps. (Lou Barbaro) I have used Unibond for a couple of dozen rods using nh4cl in the same ratio as urac (100/1) and it works the same. I do allow it to cure for a couple of days before I attack them. (Jerry Foster) Check out my web site. I sell 61 degree cutters. (Dennis Bertram)
I need to order some glue as my Urac 185 is no longer any good. What replaced Urac 185 and do they sell it at Nelson Paints in Michigan. (Lew Boyko) A company called Aircraft Spruce that we at work deal with for various bits and bobs may be useful to you, They're in the US so it wont be difficult to get from them. I don't know what their supply of glue is like, I never seal directly with them but I know supply at work get Tinnerman Nut Plates etc by the bizzillion from them. (Tony Young) The replacement is Unibond 800 and has been used extensively now by rodmakers who used to use urac...just no rod longevity tests yet. Possibly a rodmaker had already discovered the stuff because product has been around for original purpose for quite awhile. Havent heard a report of that however. People seem to like it better than urac in most cases. Powdered catalyst is finer and fewer chunks. Can still use AC crystals if desired. Range of open times are possible. Different colored powders available. Viscosity is thinner, too. (Chris Moore) Veneer Systems sells Unibond 800 in both Canada and the U.S.A. The medium tint is a good match for bamboo (blonde). Nice to work with but has only got about 6 month shelf life; I stretched this to a year by keeping it quite cold, but eventually viscosity thickens and is not usable after that. The 1-gallon size means a fair bit gets wasted, at least for me. Had a fellow break one of my rods glued with this adhesive about a year ago and the glued surfaces held fine, with bamboo itself failing. He managed to land a 46 lb. Chinook Salmon on a Canadian Canoe and although he got the fish to the beach, the rod butt failed not far above the cork grip. Told him to buy a Warn Winch for his next go-around! (George Deagle) Highland wood working also sells it. $54.00 per gallon. (Wayne Thompson)
Has anyone on here used Unibond for gluing up your rods since it came out. I am sure there is some one, but got a question. With the hardener provided will it leave a clear glue line. According to their Lit. it will be clear. Any opinions out there???? (Lew Boyko) You have to realize that this product must be shipped as a hazardous material. That's why I usually order either 1 quart or 2 pints at a time. That way the shipping cost is about the same as the material cost. (Lou Barbaro) I went to Unibond as it is the replacment for Urac 185. Also price is good, but like I said the shipping is costly, but with the shelve life of a year youwill be able to do at least 8 or more rods with a pint. Just my opinion...... PERFORMANCE SPECIFICATIONS: It's very strange that it has to shipped as dangerous and it's hard to understand why this is so when you look at UF and Resorcinol MSDS sheets. They list both glues as non hazardous and require no special handling other than normal don't breathe the dust, don't eat it, don't bathe in it. It *can* be dangerous with a great deal of exposure over a long time because the formaldehyde gasses out during cure but hardening B&W fixer used to have formaldehyde and possibly still does. You'd likely get more exposure to formaldehyde on a shopping trip to Ikea and a quick bite of Swedish meatballs than you'd ever get using the glue yourself. In the Aust/NZ standards it say's it's not hazardous for normal road and rail transport. Most MSDS sheets don't give a flash point but I did find one that rated it at 600F, paper is said to be 450F. Paper seems to be very dangerous stuff. I wanted to buy some Resorcinol here in Victoria, Aust but I seem to only be able to get it from Western Australia where I used to buy it which is 3,400km (2,100 miles) away or Queensland which is 1,790km (1,100miles) away, both too far for a quick drive to pick some up. It's $24 a lt but $90 to put it on a special truck that carries dangerous goods. When I sent the guy telling me this the MSDS sheet and asked why not just post it he just told me to take or leave it so I left it. Think I'll use Titebond III. That'll show em. (Tony Young) I think that where everybody from the insurance companies and down the line is very concerned about potential formaldehyde generators is when it starts to be shipped by air. We have come through several protocol changes, mainly related to the air freight of pathology specimens. I think currently we use glutaraldehyde. Really what I do is just stick it in the bottle they send me. If a company is shipping a product in pint or quart aliquots, it will default to air freight where it can. Shipping a quart parcel by road over more than a couple of miles just does not make economic sense...... I, of course, just stay with buying Epon from the same company time after time; I have few problems, least of all the cost either of the glue or of the freight. I agree that there is a kind of archival "rightness" about using Resorcinol and the like; but there comes a point at which it is more practical just to move on. I am not building boats or canoes or aircraft, just bamboo fly rods, and Epon just does the job easily and well. (Peter McKean)
I got my Unibond yesterday in good condition., Well, except for the Bill. I had to pay twice the amount for shipping as to what the Pint of Unibond cost. Does that make sense, really think about it? Makes me wonder if our good old USA is on a slippery slope. Unibond A little irritating isn’t it, but all relative. I just sold a piece of hard to find HVAC equipment I had advertised on Craigslist to a dairy in rural Nebraska. I sold the equipment as advertised for $300.00. The crating and shipping costs for a 125-pound piece of equipment by common carrier from Colorado to Nebraska was $940.00, and they thought that was a deal. Supply and demand I guess. Point being, rod making supplies are not usually off the shelf products anyway, especially here in western Colorado. Just about everything I buy is online, like the Golfsmith shafting epoxy I use for ferrules. There is a Golfsmith store in Denver that stocks the stuff but it’s 250 miles away from here. So I buy off their website and pay twice as much in shipping as what the product costs, and I just have to suck it up or pay for the gas… (Tom Vagell) You probably had to pay a hazardous materials charge. (Al Baldauski) So use Nyatex. They paid for the shipping last time I ordered. I used to drive over & pick it up when I lived in Michigan but now have it shipped to Arizona. (Bret Reiter)
Has anyone used the Unibond 800 glue and do you have any special instructions in addition to what is on the can? Is heat treating necessary? (Dave Beerbower) I have used Unibond 800 to glue a few rods and my only comment is that it begins to set up a little faster than I'd really like. Using the minimum amount of hardener recommended, I just barely have enough time to run the sections through my binder twice and roll the blank. I'm afraid if I miss a beat I might just be out of luck. I store my can of resin at 60°F and my last can lasted sixteen months. I use the supplied hardener and I've had no problems with glue lines. I cure my blank at 72°F. I do not heat treat the glued blank. So far, I'm pretty pleased with it. (Bill Ernst) I glued my last two rods with it using the ratio on the can of 1 hardener to 6 resin by volume. I had plenty of time to do two sections but it is really sticky and clean up was hard. I used liquid gloves on my hands and that made it come off ok. I seemed to have more working time with this than with titebond.
It has been a couple years since I glued up a rod and back then it was with Urac 185. I have a new unopend can of Unibond 800 that has been in the fridge for 6 months or so. Mixing directions call for 15 to 1 by weight for the resin and hardener. As I recall the mixing ration for Urac 185 for 10 to 1?Any way forthose of you have used Unibond 800, what ration did you use and how did you like the working time and clean up. (Lew Boyko) Make sure you bring the glue up to room temperature before you mix it. The 15:1 ratio is by weight, which I find easier to measure. The open time is about 25-30 minutes and I have had a good experience with the 800. Hope it works well for you. (Dave Beerbower) We've used Unibond 800 for the last two years at the Bamboo Bend rod school with no problems. We've mixed by volume, had no problems with working time with the shop around 70-75 degrees (students typically take around 15-25 min from mix up to bound and straightened) and clean up is easy with water. Almost the same as Urac except for the slightly different mix ratio ...note the shop must be at least 70 degrees for the glue to cure properly. (Dennis Higham)
I can't find it, but I thought the discussion when Unibond 800 came out was that when using Aluminum Chloride and distilled water it could be mixed in the same proportion as Urac 185. That was 1:10:100, Alum Chloride, water, Urac. Can anyone verify that? (Tim Wilhelm) I have been using the same mixture for Unibond as I did for URAC. I do not dilute the ammonium chloride crystals with water. I mix 1% by weight of the crystals and let the liquid resin dissolve them. 1cc of resin weighs 19.0 grains. For example, if I am mixing up 20cc of glue, I add 3.8 grains of ammonium chloride to the resin. (Lou Barbaro) I throw the "wood filler" away and just use ammonium chloride for catalyst. The filler that comes with the glue is for filling gaps in the making of structural plywood products or boat and plane making. Unless the maker has sloppy hand planning technique I was told it will actually weaken the glue joint. You can call the tech support and they will give you the recommended ratio. (Tony Bellaver)
Let’s get back on the subject of using the hardner provided with Unibond. Who has used it and what were your results. (Lew Boyko) I used it as a powder on the last rod I made (mixed 12:1) and it worked wonderfully (so far....). I was very pleased. (Marv Loopstra) I found it to work very well. Many say you need to sift the powder, but I did not. I did not see any larger particles that would require it. Stir it very well and you should be good to go. (Dave Beerbower) What exactly is it about the supplied hardener that folks appreciate? (Chris Moore) That is what I am trying to find out. I believe a few months back a rodmaker wrote thathe used the supplied hardener and it worked just fine. (Lew Boyko) What I've always wondered was what some makers have against the supplied catalyst. I for one have seen no reason to go to the trouble of buying an additional chemical when the supplied catalyst works great and only leaves a visible glue line when I screw up. That's not the fault of the glue for sure. (Bill Ernst) I have two reasons for switching from the powder catalyst to using ammonium chloride. First, the walnut powder itself is not the catalyst. It is there simply as a bulking agent. You must remember that this product is sold in large quantities to be used in laminating things such as plywood. The bulking agent is beneficial in that respect. For rod making, however, I do not want the dead weight and bulk in my rods.Secondly, the catalyst in the powder is ammonium chloride mixed into it. Therefore, there always exists the chance of spooning out a batch that is either void of ammonium chloride or contains insufficient amounts. I eliminate that possibility by measuring exact weights of ammonium chloride to respective amounts of resin. As far as the added cost, $10.00 of ammonium chloride will last you and your buddies several years, unless you are high volume makes. (Lou Barbaro) Thanks for the information but, unless I encounter a problem, I'll probably just stick with the supplied catalyst/walnut powder mix. I just can't see a weight problem when I'm only using 0.14 oz. of hardener for an average two-piece rod. Not a problem for my rods. (Bill Ernst)
Do you guys that use Unibond 800. Do you wet the side to be glued with acetone or water for a prep? (Lew Boyko) I live in a very dry climate so, especially in the summer months, I have been known to spay a little water on the segments a little while before gluing with Unibond. I can not say if it's necessary or not but doing it makes me feel better. (Bill Ernst)
I'm finally getting towards the end of my Urac 185 and need to switch to Unibond. May I ask a few questions I know have been covered previously here? Are you using the Ammonium Chloride solution as a hardener (catalyst) or using the powdered hardener? If you're using the Ammon. Chlor. what ration are you using? Are you heat setting the rod sections? If so, what time and temp? (Harry Boyd) I have been using Unibond for the last several rods with similar results as URAC. I use ammonium chloride as the catalyst. I don't believe in diluting it with water, so here is what I do. I first weighed the resin on a powder scale and came up with 19.0 grains per cc. This compared to 18.2 grains for URAC, which is probably within the margin of error between the two. Therefore, I am convinced the two resins are virtually the same. I have two hardened blocks of the resin and you cannot tell one from the other in color and texture. As with URAC, I dissolve 1% dry ammonium chloride by weight directly into the resin. For example, 20cc's of resin weigh 380 grains. For this mixture I weigh out 3.8 grains of the crystals and place them into the bottom of the medicine cup. I fill to the 20cc mark and mix until I am convinced all the crystals are dissolved. After wiping off excess glue with a wet paper towel, I heat set the rod sections at 175f for one hour. The excess glue is dry to the touch at this point. I hang them in my drying closet until the next day, at which time I remove the strings. (Lou Barbaro) I used UF109, now discontinued, which I think was the Canadian version/name of URAC. I originally used the powdered catalyst with no problems. Then I switched to ammonium chloride crystals mixed with water 20:1 by wieght, then used that catalyst with the glue 10:1 by weight. Ended up with a thin glue with the same working time as with using the powered hardener. I brushed it on twice to avoid starvation. However, I had two delaminations on rods made with that glue mix. I can't prove anything but I think the glue needs the powdered walnut shells in the hardener to keep from squeezing out all the glue. Just my humble opinion. (Ron Grantham) Is there an advantage to using ammonium chloride instead of the catalyst provide with the Unibond 800 resin? The Unibond catalyst is tan in color and I think provides a proper color to the mixture. I use a gram scale. With the scale on and zeroed, I place my mixing cup on the scale and press the 'tare' button which then 'zeros' the scale with the mixing cup on it. I spoon into it the appropriate amount of resin. With my calculator I take the scale reading and divide that by 15 for a 1:15 mix ratio. I add the results to the original weight reading then add enough catalyst to the mixing cup still sitting on the scale to equal the two figures added together (original resin weight plus 1/15th of that weight). Then I mix thoroughly with a wooden stick. I use a sponge to prewet my strips before slathering on the glue. Working time is quite good allowing for a 'senior moment' or two if you don't quite have all your steps or stuff prepared for the gluing event! The longer working time you can mix for; the more time the glue has to nestle into the prewetted cane fibers. Harry, make sure to check the date code on your new can of Unibond 800. It should be a recent date. I've heard from others who received some rather old resin. Keep in the refrigerator to slow the aging process. (Don Smith) I prefer using the ammonium chloride crystals for two reasons. First, the powder itself is not the catalyst. It is a bulking agent that is needed for large applications such as plywood. This is a detriment to rod making. Secondly, the ammonium chloride crystals within the powder are the actual catalyst. Therefore, you are relying on the assumption that the proper amount of crystals is evenly blended in the powder. By weighing out the crystals for each batch, you can be assured of the correct ratio. (Lou Barbaro) Well this is very enlightening! Some time ago I posted about my glued up strips were coming out quite oversize after glue up with Unibond 800 and their catalyst. I was being told that my major problem was how I was measuring my strips after planing, and that I was crushing the apex with my digital caliper, and that my strips were, indeed, probably oversize just prior to glue up. That all my very well have had some bearing on my measurements, and have subsequently invested in a Waara 'V' block for that caliper. Have not had the opportunity to put that tool through a rod production yet, but very soon now. I'm thinking that SOME of the over-sizing issue may well be the 'bulking up' of my Unibond 800 and their catalyst (?). When I used Urac, I used the bulking agent supplied. My strips were routinely 10 thou over. Your situation seems to mirror mine exactly, Don. (Don Peet) Looked around Missoula today for small quantity of ammonium chloride. Couldn't find anywhere. Probably going to have to get it here. (Don Smith) I had some dialogue with Nelson Paint (distributor) and Vacuum Pressing Systems (manufacturer) a couple months ago on the subject of using the bulk catalyst (H800M) provided vs a home mixed aqueous solution of ammonium chloride and water. Here’s the info I found out: First off I confirmed that Unibond 800 is indeed the replacement for URAC 185 and I was told that URAC 185 is no longer available/manufactured and Unibond 800 has taken its place. I confirmed this with both Nelson Paint as well as Vacuum Pressing Systems (VPS). You all likely already knew this fact but I wanted to confirm. Vacuum Pressing Systems, VPS, looks to be the actual manufacturer of the Unibond 800 adhesive whereas Nelson Paint is simply the distributer. I was given the contact information for Darryl Keil at VPS who I was told is a knowledgeable chemist (or equivalent?) at VPS. Darryl Keil Unibond 800 resin from Nelson Paint comes with powdered catalyst, H800M, which if I understand correctly is 15% Ammonium Chloride by weight and 85% is filler material that is not part of the chemistry. The mixture recommended is 10 parts Unibond 800 resin with 1-part powdered catalyst H800M, so from an overall chemistry perspective this means roughly 1.5% Ammonium Chloride to resin mixture (by weight). The issue with the H800M powdered catalyst is it is a majority of solid filler material that bulks up the bond line and increases bond line thickness. It sounds likely that this could be the cause of the increased strip dimensions some of you are experiencing. I was concerned about this also a few months ago and so wanted to confirm that I could use an aqueous solution of 10% ammonium chloride in water as an alternate catalyst to the powder. The benefit of the aqueous solution is it is all liquid with ammonium chloride in solution rather than a solid filler. Darryl at VPS basically confirmed that I could do this but provided the following “official” response: “Yes, to this mixing information. Again, you are asking question about using our product outside of the parameters that we specify. We intend it to be used with the catalyst we supply. All our testing is with both components. If you go outside these specfications you are on your own. With that said, you should be fine using straight ammonium chloride in water, obviously other fly rod makers are having good success this way. We just can’t put our "rubber stamp" approval on your approach as we have not done testing for this specific catalyst mixture. Do some testing to be sure. By the way, Orvis has used our glue with their fly rods.” I plan to mix up some adhesive with varying ratios of catalyst (10% AC aqueous solution) of between 1:7 and 1:12 and confirm the strength and pot life. Also plan to verify the strip dimensions, raw vs glued to confirm the increase in dimensions. (Dave Krismer) Great info and I await your test results with baited breath!Also, I assume you would be making your own aqueous ammonium chloride mixture so I'm curious how you mix that as well. Not ready to glue up yet. (Don Smith) My .02 worth! What I did when I was using Urac was to do some unscientific testing with ammonium chloride. I acquired the ammonium chloride for a scientific supply house. I mixed the powder with water until the solution left a few crystals in the bottom of my mixing cup. If I remembered correctly from science class, this pretty much made a saturated solution. Next I started using this solution and kept mixing a little at a time in a mixing cup (2 oz) with the Urac and heating the whole mess mixing cup and all in my oven. The first batch set very hard but was full of cracks like the bottom of a mud lake that has dried! So I used a little less solution! Now I need to mention that I was using 2 teaspoons full of the Urac as that is what I would mix for a gluing session. Back to it, I was measuring out the solution with a calibrated syringe and finally came up with an amount that gave me a dried puck of glue out of the oven that looked like a beautiful piece of amber!!! No cracks and dried up very hard!!! Well that is how I did it and I kept notes so I could repeat the mixture, and the heating temp. and time, I would suggest this as something you could do for yourself. Not very scientific but worked for me. Not 'the' way to do it but something that I did, YMMV!! (Joe Arguello)
I am getting ready to glue up several rods with Unibond 800. It is recommended to use Unibond measured by weight reather than volume. I will be using a slow mixture of 12 resin to 1 hardner. I also purchased the hardner that is neutral tan in color. There has been some discussion the past several weeks about using a liquid hardner instead of the hardner provided by the Manuf. I did my very best to get both these rods as close to demensions as possible. I will be interested to see how much increase in glue up there will be in these strips. I will let you all know how it turns out.... (Lew Boyko) We've been discussing using granular for of ammonium chloride, not necessarily a liquid for of the catalyst. You can get small quantities over the internet. I also have some gluing up to do real soon so I have some ammonium chloride coming. I am almost positive I have been experiencing some 'growth' in my glued dimensions with the tan powder that is mainly powdered walnut shells. (Don Smith) I sent this out the other day but I think it got lost in all that junk email that was has been going around the last couple of weeks so I thought I would send it one more time, you can call or email me if you have questions, maybe I can help. I got this the first time you sent it, thank you. This information is helpful. I don't think I will be making a saturated solution of ammonium chloride to mix with the Unibond 800. I will make sure the ammonium chloride crystals are as fine a powder as possible before mixing. I read another post that told us what the original Unibond catalyst mix was with the walnut/catalyst ratio. I think it was around 1% by volume? Anyway, I'll mix some of my own test cups to see what gives me acceptable working time and glue up from there. I probably won't be 'heat setting' my glue ups. Didn't before. Not really necessary??? Unibond 800 instructions don't call for heat setting.... (Don Smith) I agree with you about heat setting not being necessary, but I did it because what I found was that as soon as I took the sections out of the oven and let them cool for a few minutes I could immediately scrape and sand the blanks and continue to work on the rod!!! Didn't need to let it sit over night or for any period of time. Like I said before certainly not 'the' way to do it but worked out good for me in my limited time. (Joe Arguello)
Over the past few weeks I have been experimenting with Unibond 800 and Ammonium Chloride (pure, not the H800M mixture supplied with the glue). My cup mixtures at 1%, 1.5% and 2% of NH4Cl (ammonium chloride). All hardened (cured) over time but accelerated in drying cabinet atmosphere @ 80°. What was the ambient temperature of the shop during your glue up? Another question is what was the humidity level in your shop during glue up and did you mist your bamboo before applying the glue? (Ken Weymouth) I mixed at around 64°-68° and wet my strips with a damp sponge. Not sure what the humidity is running in my room at this winter time here in Missoula... Humidity today in Missoula according to Weather Underground is 94%. I'm thinking this can vary greatly from outdoors to indoors? Makers of UniBond are adamant about not using it below 70 degrees Farenheit. (Harry Boyd)
Well, I will let you know what to expect from Unibond 800 that is over 12 months old. Nelson Paints where most of us rod-makers order it from also tell us 12 months. Well, I have a can never opened that was well over 12 months old. Opened the can, it looked, stirred it and it still looked good. I used the measurement of 15 to 1 to give me the longest working time. Strips were all laid out on masking tape, I had tape on each end and 2 others strips of tape in between. I brushed on the Unibond which took me perhaps a total of 2-3 minutes, then started to roll em up. That is where things went to Hell in a hurry, getting strips rolled up, I need 5 hands and 4 feet. The Uni was so tacky that rolling the strips up and moving my hands along the blank almost impossible. I finally got it rolled up and then discovered that strip 2 and 4 somehow flipped around. I had to pull each strip apart, then cussing and swearing I somehow got the dam things back to gather, at this point I did not need tape or string to hold them together. They were together and all this under 10 minutes. Ran them through the binder and into the drying bin. 5 hours later I went to remove the binding string, clean up the section, straighten if necessary and put them back into the drying bin. This was one of those where you had to sand off the string, scrap and piss and moan. So, trust me,,,, Unibond 800 is no good after the 12 months. With the ration of 15 to 1 I should have had at least 45 minutes working time, but no way with this old stuff. I did order another can of Uni 800 for $8.79 and shipping of $19.78. Menards is only 2 miles away and bottle of Titebond II is well under $8.79. If Titebond is good enough for Dave Norling, well it is good enough for me. I am going to give it a try. (Lew Boyko (9/3/2016)) Titebond 3 not 2 and a bad choice if you want working time, almost no room for error!! (Dave Norling, Jr.) Nyatex. Long shelf life, long working time, strong, I suspect very little creep. Good stuff. (Jerry Drake) Titebond III, not Titebond II. Titebond III is waterproof when totally cured but Titebond II is only water resistant. The working time is ok and if you were to actually time yourself during your glue application, binding the section twice, hand rolling then roller rolling each flat you would be near the 5-minute mark. Glue application should be more towards the wet side rather than the dry, so your 'open' time would be slightly longer. The excess glue you squeeze out during both binding passes you'll roll off during the palm rolling step. I hang with weight 25 hours and never had to sand string. It always pulls off clean and blanks sand with 180 - 250 nicely. (Don Smith) I am going to try a rod with Titebond III and another of my rods with Unibond 800. but from now on when the expiration time is up for what ever, out she goes in the garbage. (Lew Boyko) I have used Titebond II Extend which gives you about 15 minutes open time and Titebond III which gives you about 10 minutes open time. Both work well and the waterproof or not is not really an issue unless you plan to drop your rod in the river with enough weight on it to keep it under for several days or weeks. I have fished rods made with Titebond II Extend and dropped them in the river, but got them out quickly. They usually float, but you better grab them quickly or they will go downstream. These rods showed no ill effect. (Hal Manas) I've been using TBII or other yellow PVA glues on unpainted bee hives for years now. I have a lot of 3" wide pine that I edge glue to make up the required width to make hives from them. To paint or not to paint hives comes in and out of fashion every few years among bee keepers so clearly there is no right answer, I hate painting so only paint the ones at home so they look nice, but the field hives are left to go grey. Bee rustlers tend to not notice them as much as well painted ones either. Maybe someday they'll open at the glue lines, but I think the hives would have just rotted from the inside by then anyhow as they do. Something people often do not realize is that there are standards glue must reach to be called waterproof and it's much greater than a rod will ever have to endure in use. The only genuinely waterproof glue is resorcinol BTW and its boil proof. (Tony Young) How did you measure your ratios? I keep it refrigerated and using same can for 2 years and have no issues. The only time I have had the problem that you experienced is when the ratio was off. I have always used a ratio of 100-1 with urac for 23 years and have continued that same ratio with uni-bond without issues. Very curious to know how you measured the ratios? Possibly you were off in your measurements and you’re not realizing it? What was the temperature in the room where you were gluing? You do realize that the warmer it is the faster it sets up? That can also be a factor in what you experienced. Its been very hot here in northern NJ the past few weeks...... (Domenic Croce) I have also used Unibond that survived in my refrigerator for 2 years plus, without difficulty. When the glue is nearing the end of its useful life it does seem to get more viscous and that is a clear signal that a new batch is in order. I use the 15 to 1 ratio as well, but must admit that I am still tense during glue-up. My next-door neighbour has an uncanny sense that he should come to visit then; perhaps I need one of those "Do Not Disturb" signs for the shop door! In any event, fresh glue is far better than ruined strips, as too much time goes into getting to that stage. (George Deagle) Well, I am not going to second guess my self. I weighed the Unibond when I mixed it up. I mixed 150 grains of Uni to 10 grains of hardener. That stuff was setting up in 5 minutes or so. I glued up a tip for a Payne 98, I cut the tip into 6 inch darts to shoot at the rabbits. I will make a set of tips this winter. I got the new Unibond via Fedex Sat. (Lew Boyko)
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