BambooRodmaking Tips - Tips Area - Glues - Ferrules - General - Bamboo Rodmaking

Bamboo Tips - Tips Area
Glues - Ferrules - General

What type of glue/cement/epoxy should I use for (1) Ferrules and (2) Cork Rings?

Is it something that I'll be able to buy locally from a hardware store or will I need to order it? If I will need to order, where from? (Aaron Gaffney)

For the cork glue, I like something that doesn't dry super hard. I epoxy the anchor ring on the rod and then when dry, I use Pliobond to glue up the rest of the rings. Soft glue keeps ridges between the rings from showing up. Plus I would think that during normal wear of the cork handle, it will compress some and I want the glue to follow that compression over time.

For what it's worth, I also use Pliobond for my ferrules. I use the method Chris O. showed me (flaming the Pliobond first and it is basically contact cement). (Scott Turner)

I think that most people use a carpenter glue like Titebond to glue rings together. I use PU glue to glue grips or rings to the blank. Harry Boyd uses PU for rings and grip to blank glue.

If you go to Todd's Tips site you will find many long discussions about ferrule glues. Some possibilities are 1. epoxy 2. ferrule cement 3. golf shafting cement 4. Arrow shaft cement 5. PU glue 6. and Pliobond.

No matter what glue you chose to use there are some very important general considerations. The ferrules must be carefully prepared first. You need to fit them by reducing the diameter of the male slide with fine wet or dry sand paper. Two very important things to consider are: 1. do this slowly so that you do not over do it and have a loose fit. Make sure that material is removed evenly all along the slide, since there is a tendency to over sand the outer end giving a taper to the slide. You need to keep checking for fit. I start with 600 grit paper and final polish with 2000 grit. The ferrules should slide together smoothly and give nice pop sound when separated. When you trial fit, make sure you do not get any grit or filings into the female. Clean it out with a cue tip or blow it out with compressed air (I use canned air). Sand down the tabs on the ferrules so that they taper in thickness (thick near the body of the ferrule and near paper-thin at the outer end. You can also work the outer ends to points with a fine file and emery paper giving a six pointed crown effect (as far as I am concerned this is optional).

Be certain to use the appropriate ferrule size. If you are going to hand fit the ferrules all you should need to do is remove the six corners and just a little material from the flats. Try to make the station as on-center as possible and fit tightly into the ferrule. Then you are ready to glue.

I use the same PU glue (Borden Ultimate) as I use to glue up blanks. You need to use something sharp to scratch up the inside of the ferrule socket and then clean out any oil with acetone or lacquer thinner. Dry them out completely before gluing. Then I dampen the bamboo with water, coat it with glue and push it into the ferrule. Some glue should squeeze out. I wipe off the excess, make certain that the tabs are aligned with the flats and bind them down tightly with binding thread. There will be some foam out but this can be removed after the glue sets. If you do not dampen the bamboo there will not be enough moisture to kick the glue inside the ferrule. Except once when I forgot to moisten, I have never had a ferrule come off. (Doug Easton)

This is at least the second (and probably more) occasion where the flaming procedure with Pliobond for ferrule mounting has been mentioned. Since no one has elaborated beyond mentioning it, I can only assume it is either a no brainer procedure or simplified brain surgery. Given the immediate adhesion which occurs with flamed Pliobond, I'm

inclined to go for the second option. Can anyone explain the procedure? (Roland Cote)

Dave Collyer has a ferrule fitting tutorial on Todd's site that explains the Pliobond process (see Step 6). (Chris Carlin)

Here's how Chris O. showed me:

1. Prepare and dry fit the ferrule like with any glue product/method

2. Clean the surface of the prepared blank and inside the ferrule with denatured alcohol (squeaky clean)

3. Apply a small amount of Pliobond on the blank and a bit into the ferrule.

4. Burn off the Pliobond's (naphtha) on the rod blank and flash the naphtha from inside the ferrule.

5. Carefully align the ferrule tabs and slide it on. I press the ferrule against a wall or a counter to make sure it's seated all the way (do this while the Pliobond is still warm from the flashing).

6. Backout plan: carefully heat up the ferrule with a heat guy and pull if off. Clean things up and start again.

Let the Pliobond cure fully (a couple of days) before fitting the ferrules. I've had problems when I've generated too much heat sanding down the male ferrule and making a tight fit in the female ferrule that caused me to pull off the ferrule (I tried to make a too tight ferrule fit too far down, too soon after I generated heat from the sanding - the perfect ferrule storm)! (Scott Turner)

4. Burn off the Pliobond's (naphtha) on the rod blank and flash the naphtha from inside the ferrule.

Could you elaborate a little more on "burn off" and flash. Maybe it will be obvious to me when I do it, but I'm not quite sure what you mean. Do you use a lighter? (Aaron Gaffney)

I wrote an article on fitting and setting ferrule by hand with Pliobond that might help some with questions...

Todd has it up on the tip site here.

I learned it from Paul Hightower before his passing, Paul was Bill Phillipson's shop foreman...

Later Goodwins, Wright & McGill & Phillipson all used Pliobond on the ferrules... (Dave Collyer)

The trick is to work quickly, before things cool off and the Pliobond sets up after flashing. I find that if it feels like it's starting to feel like the ferrule is going to stick when pushing it onto the shaft, a quick warming of the ferrule with a lighter or alcohol lamp loosens things back up enough to get the ferrule home.

Another thing is to make sure as much of the solvent as possible has been burned off during flashing. If the flames didn't go out of their own accord, torch it up again and make sure. If you leave any solvent behind, the joint will need additional curing before it's all solid. If you do it "right", you can lap soon as the ferrules are room temperature.

Also, before I forget, you can heat the ferrule again once seated if you need to tweak the tab alignment without destroying the bond. Warm it enough to allow it to move, then let it cool back down after adjusting.

Had my doubts about Pliobond, but after fishing a couple of rods with ferrules attached thus pretty darn hard and not having any trouble with them coming loose (didn't have that problem with epoxy either, to be honest, but I'm a stickler on joint prep), I'm a believer. (Todd Enders)

Sounds awfully dangerous to me, a bit like napalm!!!! I remember doing a shot of flaming sambuca once. That was the last time I lit anything that I decide to drink. Of course I might not of spilled it if it wasn't my fourth one, still don't have hair on that part of my arm! I say stick with something you don’t have to light on fire. Or in my case something you don’t drink!!!! (Bill Tagye)

I use Elmers Ultimate glue (formerly Probond polyurethane) to glue up strips, glue on ferrules and for cork. It's readily available, requires no mixing, dries to about the same color as cane, is waterproof, and gives you a couple of hours of working time. The only down side for ferrules is that it is a delicate operation to remove one. It takes a temperature of more than 400 degrees to soften the glue enough to remove a ferrule. While that's hot enough to turn bamboo to charcoal, if you use high heat very briefly, and work quickly, it can be done without any visible discoloration of the bamboo.

I don't use it for tip tops or for reel seats because I may want to remove them. I use epoxy for them because epoxy is so easy take apart with a little heat. (Robert Kope)

I've gotten Pliobond in bottles and it always appear to have separated, but it is viscous enough that it isn't easy to get back to a homogenous mix. There is also Pliobond in tubes, which you can't see into - does that Pliobond also separate, or are they are different formulation? How critical is it to mix it before gluing? (Henry Mitchell)

I get it in a metal tube, it says to shake it before use. It takes a lot of shaking to get a consistent brown goo to come out. (Pete Van Schaack)

Are there any recommendations on which ferrule cement to use? (Ren Monllor)

There are a lot of recommendations, and you will probably get many of them as responses. The main thing that I keep in mind has less to do with material choice and more to do with process. I believe Bill Harms put me onto that ideology.

Make sure your fit is proper. Not too tight not too loose.
Make sure your mating surfaces have a bit of "tooth" (you can use a small round file to scuff the inside of the ferrule)
Make sure your parts (the 'boo and the metal) are spotless, clean and oil-free.
Have patience. The air pocket will push out eventually. (Carl DiNardo)

I use U-40 Rod Bond and I have not had an issue with it so far. (Scott Bahn)

I think that what needs to be mentioned here is that the glue needs to have the right properties. That is it should stay somewhat pliable. When I glue up some ferrules there is always some glue left over, you can kinda mark it with your fingernail after it has dried, this is what I think one should look for as opposed to epoxies that dry glass hard. I also use U-40 Rod Bond, have used it for many years and a bunch of rods and it has served me well. (Joe Arguello)

Ah, you're in luck. Would you believe that we have a consensus on the best glue and methods? If you do, call me, I have a bridge I'd love to sell. :)

Carl's advice is sound, although there are two camps in regards to roughing the ferrules.

I'd suggest a bit of reading on Todd's site. You will get the good, the bad, and the rest in one place.

The best glue, of course, is the one I use. Unfortunately, that is what about a dozen other fellows will tell you, and we each favor a different glue. (Larry Blan)

I'm ready to mount ferrules on the next rod and got to thinking. Has anyone ever tried flex coat tip top adhesive, the stick glue that you melt with a flame, for ferrules? It does a great job with tip tops so why wouldn't it work with ferrules? (Doug Alexander)

Bohning Ferr-L-Tite is a hot melt glue that works good on ferrules. I don't know about the Flex Coat product, but Ferr-L-Tite seems to be a lot stronger than Gudebrod ferrule cement, which is commonly used for tip-tops. You can get Ferr-L-Tite in archery supply stores. (Tom Bowden)

I use Ferr-L-Tite. Don't forget to pin the ferrules. I had my first rod's ferrule pull off the tip section when the adhesive was used with no pin. Since then I've pinned all my rods, another 9 rods, with no loosening of ferrules. Admittedly this is not a lot of experience but it's good enough for me.

I put the pin through where it will be covered by thread when wrapped. That way you don't have to worry about water seepage or visibility. (Larry Swearingen)

I know that this sounds like a very banal sort of topic, but I wonder what other people use to glue ferrules onto cane sections.

As much as that, I really wonder whether or not it makes a lot of difference.

I have used Acraglas Green now for years and years, but still have the occasional failure. Prior to adopting this as my standard, I tried various glues - polyurethane glue, Epon, hot melt, and some others (Weldwood comes to mind).

All appeared to be OK, but all delivered their small aliquot of failures.

I try to keep the metal-to-cane fit tight and close, and take a lot of trouble to prevent surface contamination on either surface.

I have recently been looking at the specifications of a product called G-flex, from West Systems, and have tried it out in a couple of rods, and wonder whether the claimed increased flexibility of the stuff might not make it suitable as a ferrule glue.

Any thoughts out there? Any specific experience? (Peter McKean)

How about golf club shaft epoxy? Seems if it holds on a golf club head to a club shaft, it would work for a ferrule. Heat would still remove it if necessary later on. (Ron Kubica)

I have been using Golf shaft epoxy for 21 years and use it in all of my classes. Never a failure. Why change when it works so well. (Doug Hall)

Thanks for the reply, Ron; but when I have asked at the local pro-shop, it seems they just use any old epoxy they can get their hands on.

I just thought this G-flex product might be better, possibly. (Peter McKean)

Two items you need to consider:

Epoxy needs a bit of clearance, a snug tight fit is counter productive to good results
Not all Epoxy is compatible with copper based alloys such as the NS ferrules. I would call the manufacturer and ask.

Offhand it appears the Epoxy's with strong odor, somewhat a vinegar smell, are likely to be incompatible. (Jed Dempsey)

Just to stir the pot a little, I’ve used Pliobond for years. No failures whatsoever. (Paul Julius)

I have never used anything but this. (Joe Arguello)

Like Joe, I use U40 Rodbond when I use metal ferrules. (JW Healy)

I use shafting epoxy from Golfsmith. I have never had a failure yet. (Bret Reiter)

I use Clubmaker 30/60 Shafting Epoxy from Golfsmith. I've never had an issue with it. (Mike Arnold)

I’ve always used U40 rod bond for years and have never had a failure. Easy to work with and lasts forever in an air tight container. (Scott Bahn)

Here's what I think is the best article on surface prep for gluing ferrules.

Most people make the mistake of using too rough an abrasion on the surface which actually makes a poorer bond than if did nothing except clean the surface. If I use the above method, I cannot use epoxy to bond ferrules because it works so well that if they get damaged they are impossible to remove using heat without total destroying the underlying cane. I use glue called StiknSeal which has an excellent bond but easily removed with moderate heat. (Ken Paterson)

http://www.adhesive.com/instructions_detail_surfaceprep__adhesives_application.html (Harry Boyd)

Something that should be added to the info on this link is you should apply the glue as soon as possible, ie within the hr of prepping the materials and drying. Oxides form on all materials more or less immediately and they don't stick so well as bare metal. (Tony Young)

Thanks, Harry; very useful, especially the bit on surface abrasion! (Peter McKean)

The problem with that article is it doesn't differentiate one adhesive from another. It does a nice job of talking about some of the substrates but it doesn't talk about the actual adhesive being used on those substrates. Best to get the info directly from the individual manufacturer - ie U40, talk to the nice folks at RodBond. (Mark Wendt)

I use Accraglass Green and have never had a failure... I've only made about 17 rods. (Rick Crenshaw)

OK, seventeen out of seventeen is a bloody good average!

So how do you prep your surfaces, considering this is a wood to metal bond? Do you try to make it all ultimately smooth, or do you deliberately roughen it up, or just play it where it lies? Let's assume that we are taking huge trouble to ensure clean surfaces with nil contaminant spread around.

I know what the theory is about these things being made to bond smooth surfaces, but it does always seem to me that a bit of deliberately introduced irregularity might give a few "lugs" or whatever that would have to be sheared before separation occurred.

Very unscientific, I know, but "I yam what I yam!" I am a veterinarian. I know Halstead's principles of surgery, one of the most important is to suture with the minimum number of sutures needed to achieve tissue apposition. But when I really want something to hang together, it is sometimes very difficult to curb the desire to bang in another stitch or two. Experience tells me to stick to Halstead, but it can be very tempting.

Thanks for your input. (Peter McKean)

The link that Harry sent is well worth a read. It specifically recommends etching or abrading the surface which is something I've always tended to do just because I also yam what I yam, not just ferrules but any metal bonding I've done. Bonding wood is different though, it should be freshly planed for best results.

The abrasion of metals does 2 things I think. Firstly, it allows for a keyed surface beyond the microscopically rough surface of a "smooth" one but it also ensures you've cleaned the surface. You'd have to clean the item again of course after abrading. The abrading doesn't need to be very aggressive, just rough it a bit. So if you haven't seen the link, degrease (clean), abrade, degrease. The link also has recommended surface preps, for NS use the copper recommendation but the etching is possibly a little OTT. (Tony Young)

It depends on the adhesive you are using. Since an epoxy seems to be the most prominent, I'll talk about that. Epoxy gives the best bond when it's in a thin film. There are a lot of white papers out there from the manufacturers that tell you what the best film thickness is for their product. Too thick of a film gives you a weak bond, because the epoxy itself is not very strong. You can see that for yourself - mix up a small bit of epoxy, spread it across some wax paper and let it cure. Peel the cured epoxy off, and bend it and pull it. You'll find it isn't very strong.

Where epoxy gets its joint strength is in the matrix of the adhesive and the joint materials. According to the industry, you'll get the best joint (along with the thin film) when you've finished the mating surfaces to what they call a "water break" surface. In other words, water doesn't bubble up but spreads out in a film. Basically lightly scuffing the mating surfaces so neither are shiny. Gouging, or really roughing up a mating surface when using epoxy actually makes for a weaker joint, because you are basically making a thicker film. (Mark Wendt)

I use Dave LeClairs ferrule station cutters and a Sherline lathe to prep the rod ferrule area being careful to only remove the apexes of the blank. I then use a Swiss Made 9/2 carving tool to put a very light groove along what used to be each of the flats and along the length of the ferrule area excluding the area under the ferrule tabs. The inside of the metal ferrule is filed very slightly with a small tip top file that I got from Jeff Wagner. The ferrule area of the blank and the inside of the metal ferrule are then both cleaned with denatured alcohol. I use golf shaft epoxy to join the two and secure the tabs with cotton thread until dry. Once dry I remove the thread and use denatured alcohol to clean any epoxy residue. The blank with ferrel attached is turned on the Sherline to further clean and to feather out the metal ferrule edge before wrapping with Yli silk. I'm sure others have differing processes but this works for me. (Mike Arnold)

And you are weakening your epoxy joint by putting that groove on each of your flats, and actually leaving flats. Both surfaces of the joint to be mated should actually do that - mate with a very thin gap between the two surfaces. Excess epoxy does not strengthen the joint, it weakens it. (Mark Wendt)

You miss the point of having the "very light groove". My bamboo and ferrule attachment area is very tight. The "very light grooves" are not there to add strength to the epoxy to metal bond but in fact are there to allow for any excess epoxy to escape that might be trapped between the tip of the bamboo and the moisture cap of the ferrule. It allows the ferrule to seat properly without any potential gaps. We are not talking about heavy grooves here. At the max 2 to 3 thousands in depth. As I said in my original post we all have our different ways of making rods. This works for me. (Mike Arnold)

I think this more to release the air that is trapped in the ferrule during installation that is why it pops & crackles during installation. (Bret Reiter)

Use a heat gun while sliding the ferrule on. Works like magic. (Mark Wendt)

And you are still missing the point. You've weakened your joint. Period. Doesn't matter how deep it is, you've weakened the joint.

Here's a little trick that takes the place of scoring the cane or the ferrule: After you've glued up the ferrule and the cane, slowly work the two substrates together. Use your heat gun judiciously on the metal ferrule, all the while holding pressure on it - I usually push the cane section in to the ferrule while the ferrule is pushed against the front of my work bench. The epoxy will thin out, and all of a sudden the cane will slide into the ferrule and the trapped air will escape quite easily.

Any time you increase the amount of epoxy into the joint above and beyond the thin layer necessary to give the joint it's best bond, you are weakening the joint. (Mark Wendt)

Think of the 6 glue joints between your individual splines They are strongest when thinnest and the surface is smoothest (Nick Kingston)

Nick has a good point. Unless you fit a ferrule as small or smaller than the flat-to-flat dimensions, you are going to have a gap between the flats and the ferrule. Most of us don't want to take off that much cane; we'd rather trust in the gap-filling strength of the glue than to reduce the blank to completely round.

Golfsmith shaft epoxy is a lot thinner than AcraGlass green and pushes out of the ferrule a lot easier, fwiw. (Frank Stetzer, Hexrod, Taper Archive, Rodmakers Archive)

Thanks Mark. I will give your suggestion a try. Years ago when I was taught (Oyster), I was taught that by making the light grooves it allowed air and excess epoxy to escape thus making a stronger bond. Without independent lab tests to verify the difference in the two techniques they become opinions of the individuals. I still think that my way of attaching ferrules provides a strong bond. That is my opinion just as it is your opinion that your technique also provides a strong bond. I like your idea better than my current technique as it removes some additional steps in the rod making process. However without independent proof the are both just opinions of the respective makers. Thanks again for the tip. (Mike Arnold)

There have been plenty of lab tests by the manufacturers of epoxies as to what gives the best bond strength in a joint. It isn't my opinion, it's just what those lab tests have turned up as to what works the best. Read up on that link that Ken posted this morning for a start - it talks about the surface prep necessary for a good epoxy bond in the joint. It's written by the fella that makes U40 Rod Bond. just in case some missed it, here it is again.

There are a ton of technical papers out there discussing and testing bond line thickness against the strength of the joint. Be prepared to brush up on your calculus though.

Making grooves was an old school technique from when bonding agents other than epoxy were used. Epoxy is a whole different animal from just about any other kind of adhesive. (Mark Wendt)

Maybe if the groove was cross-wise instead of length-wise it would weaken the joint but that would make no send if you are trying to relieve pressure.

Besides Mark, I do not see how it would weaken the joint when the groove is totally buried inside the ferrule? (Bret Reiter)

Doesn't make a difference whether the groove goes the length of the ferrule station or across the width. Epoxy by itself has little strength is shear, compression or tension. Excess epoxy will only weaken any joint.

The joint *is* the ferrule and the cane. The forces acting on the ferrule joint act on both the ferrule and the cane. Doesn't matter how "buried" the joint is. As I mentioned in the previous reply to Mike, epoxy is not like other adhesives. It's a chemical cure and relies on the properties and methods laid out by the manufacturer to give you the strongest joint. (Mark Wendt)

So do you always choose a size of ferrule such that the ferrule station is turned completely round (no flats are left)? (Bill Lamberson)

Yep. You're taking very little cane away when you turn the corners off at the ferrule station. Dave LeClair's ferrule station cutters are/were designed to do just that. The thickness and strength of the ferrule. along with the strength of the joint bond, more than make up for what minimal amount of cane you remove from turning the ferrule station.

The ferrule joint is a matrix between the cane, the thin film epoxy bond, and the ferrule itself.

If removing cane was such a bad thing, stepdown ferrules wouldn't work very well, would they? (Mark Wendt)

Don't own a heat gun. The little groove in one area is not deep enough to weaken the cane. I would not do it on every flat though.

One other thought on this. I remember sitting in Bernard Hills rod shop back in Cassapolis Michigan watching him make rods. Whenever he was going to mount ferrules he always had the end of the blank he was mounting ferrules on stuck in a can full of sand on top of his wood stove or a hot plate. I asked him why he did this & he told me this was what they did in Heddons bamboo rod shop to set ferrules. Heating the bamboo made ferrule mounting easier. I guess your heat gun idea works on the same principle. (Bret Reiter)

Any time you increase the thickness of the bond line, when using epoxy as an adhesive, you are weakening the joint. That's just the way epoxy works.

Heat will thin the epoxy so that air can escape from the fit between the ferrule and the cane. (Mark Wendt)

The groove is so minuscule that the amount of extra epoxy in it will not affect the epoxy bond. Now if it was half way through the blank you may have a point. (Bret Reiter)

You guys do what you want to do. All I can do is present what the industry has learned through testing over and over again.

Any epoxy in a joint more than the minimum required to effect the optimal bond is going to weaken the joint. (Mark Wendt)

Mark's right. The best amount of glue to use, any glue is the least amount required to do the task. The glue itself tends to be the weak point if it's too thick. It's not necessarily that the glue itself breaks or fails but a thick glue line tends to be weak.

For eg when you laminate wood it's best if the laminates are freshly planed, the glue spread on both surfaces and some open time allowed then when the lamination is clamped enough pressure is applied to get squeeze out. The squeeze out is basically to evacuate excessive glue, you don't want to starve the joints or laminates but you don't want excessive glue either because that makes a bad joint.

Think about it. If epoxy was so good and the more the better why would you clamp a job at all if the glue was so good that you wanted the joint pretty much flooded with glue? You don't. (Tony Young)

OK. Mark is right. But I've used the same glue, the same procedure and have zero failures. I'm hard on stuff, too. Ask anyone who knows me. I've had to get two to get my rods apart many times. So I should change now? No more roughing the ferrule and bamboo, and no escape groove. Ahh... Think I'll wait til I have a failure. Has Mark ever had a ferrule bond failure?

BTW, Gary Young did a demo using ferrous chloride to etch the NS as a bonding prep. Still, I'm leery of changing my method. (Rick Crenshaw)

Never had a ferrule bond failure. And I'm pretty hard on my rods too. I have repaired other folks rods which have ferrule bond failure though. (Mark Wendt)

A fine groove is not going to compromise the integrity of the ferrule bond. Now if is in excess of its size it may.

How about when you just take the apex off the angles on a blank when you glue ferrules on? I know that on some rods this is all that is cut off. So on the flats you have no bamboo to metal touching & there is the gap being filled in. (Bret Reiter)

That's the thing. I don't just trim the corners off on the ferrule station. The ferrule station is fully rounded, providing the best substrate for the epoxy to bond to using the thinnest layer without squeezing out all the epoxy. If you are leaving gaps between the cane and the ferrule, you are weakening the joint. Plain and simple. The optimal bond thickness is just a few thousandths of an inch, between .003" and .005". Any more than that is too much epoxy and it weakens the joint.

I think I'll stick with what the industry and the manufacturers say about best practices for their products. Y'all can do as you wish. (Mark Wendt)

This has been a great discussion but as usual with me it just raised more questions. I have been taught to fit the ferrule to the bamboo very snugly. It should go on with a bit of resistance. Now if you do this the clearance for the glue line can be no more than about a half thou. Also I have been taught that you should only remove the minimum amount of cane at the ferrule station, just enough to fit into the closest 64th ferrule size. I have often felt that the glue ended up mainly on the flats and mostly scraped off of the rounded cane.

As an example, I have a 2pc 4wgt on the bench with a taper dimension of .190 at the ferrule. The original calls for a #13 but to turn the cane down to full round at the ferrule it would have to be a 12. Are you saying that's what should be done? Wouldn't this just risk cane failure in bending at the turn down.

If the minimum optimal glue film thickness is .003 as you say below, we would have a dickens of a time doing this and getting the ferrule on straight.

I have only built a handful of rods but all the ferrules were fitted and glued as above with U40 Rod Bond and I have not had a failure, YET. (Rick Hodges)

Mark will add his bit I'm sure but the important point here other than mounting the ferrule straight is that there is enough glue for complete coverage but the thinner the glue coverage the better as long as it's complete and the ferrule and cane is prepped right.

If when you mount the ferrule you have so much squeeze out of epoxy that you have removed almost all of it without actually scraping it off completely leaving bare faying surfaces you've done the right thing.

Personally I would imagine that the fillets filling the non round parts are not a real world problem provided you've prepped the ferrule correctly but I may be wrong in this but I'm sure you'd have a stronger bond if the cane was round and a good fit with the ferrule. (Tony Young)

The thicknesses I wrote were in error. Should be .001" to .003". .001" to .0015" is considered a slip fit. Somewhat snug, but fits easily. You don't want to starve the joint, but you don't want to have too much epoxy in it. Laminating epoxy, which is what we generally use for gluing on ferrules and gluing up the strips is a bonding adhesive, not a gap filling one.

Other comments embedded below:

Look at it this way - if you go with the 13, you're going to have to build up the ferrule station with something. At .203" inside diameter of the ferrule, your cane is already .013" smaller than the ferrule. If you drop to a 12, your ferrule is only .0025" smaller than the cane across the flats.

Stepdown male ferrule stations pretty much always are turned down to round under the male portion of the slide. The trick with any ferrule joint is to eliminate as much of the gap as you can between the ferrule and the cane.

Where you have to be careful is the transitions between the different diameters. Sharp corners are a no-no. Radius the corners.

If the minimum optimal glue film thickness is .003 as you say below, we would have a dickens of a time doing this and getting the ferrule on straight. I have only built a handful of rods but all the ferrules were fitted and glued as above with U40 Rod Bond and I have not had a failure, YET.

You're using a very good adhesive. I've been using U40 for years, and have never had a ferrule failure with it. (Mark Wendt)

It is undeniable that the cohesive strength diminishes as the bond thickness increases for epoxy adhesive systems. Compliance increases with bond thickness which can be a benefit when addressing stresses due to differential thermal distortion. Always a trade off.

However, for epoxy systems used in our application, the failures are overwhelmingly adhesive failures and not cohesive failures (the joint pulls out with all of the epoxy stuck to the bamboo and nothing left inside on the ferrule). Therefore, it is much more important to pay attention to the surface prep than worry about local deviations in bond line thickness.

Abrading can be used as a surface prep but is not as effective or easy to perform than etching especially when using epoxy. Great idea for prepping butt caps as well.

Just saying....... (Gary Young)

I humbly re-refer people to the link Harry sent in the first place where it mentions abrading as a basic recommendation but etching for copper. I really should have thought that slight scuffing (abrading) would be sufficient though.

Thick amounts of glue are a problem though. If you look at fillets of epoxy, you'll usually see parting of the faying surface. It seems that the thicker the layer of glue the less likely it is to go with the flow as it were with the bonded materials. Glue is not really our friend; it only looks that way. Can't avoid it but it has to be used right. (Tony Young)

Joint strength is not one or the other. Adhesive and cohesive strength combined are what determines the total joint strength. Why scrimp on either?

I've seen ferrule joint failures with epoxy left on both the inside of the metal ferrule and on the cane. I've seen ferrule joint failures where all the epoxy is left on the cane (obviously someone didn't clean the ferrule well enough). I've also seen ferrule failure where all the epoxy has been left inside the ferrule.

How does one etch cane? (Mark Wendt)

From discussions about adhesives used for attaching ferrules during CRR, rodmakers relayed their experiences and choices of adhesives for attaching ferrules. I was surprised by the variety. Good results were reported with each.

I am not extolling the benefits of what I use or judging the choice of others. I just find it very interesting learning about the variety:

PlioBond
U40 Rod Bond
Acryglass
Polyurethane foaming adhesive (I did not get a brand name)
Tite Bond III

What others can you add to the list? (Gary Young)

At the urging of a friend who has also tried this, Titebond brand Poly. (Marv Loopstra)

TB III?? I love it for gluing up blanks but it is a wood glue - didn't think it would bond to metal. (JW Healy)

I questioned that as well and it was re-confirmed.............Tite Bond III. (Gary Young)

Ferrule Tight (thermal) and J B Weld. (Scott Grady)

I apologize for leaving the list short and thank you for the response. Current list:

PlioBond
U40 Rod Bond
Acryglass
Polyurethane foaming adhesive (I did not get a brand name)
Tite Bond III
JB Weld
Titebond Poly
Ferrule Tite (thermal adhesive)
Devcon 5min epoxy
Golfsmith shafting epoxy (Gary Young)

I know that this sounds like a very banal sort of topic, but I wonder what other people use to glue ferrules onto cane sections.

As much as that, I really wonder whether or not it makes a lot of difference.

All appeared to be OK, but all delivered their small aliquot of failures.

I try to keep the metal-to-cane fit tight and close, and take a lot of trouble to prevent surface contamination on either surface.

Any specific experience? (Peter McKean)

How about golf club shaft epoxy? Seems if it holds on a golf club head to a club shaft, it would work for a ferrule. Heat would still remove it if necessary later on. (Ron Kubica)

I have been using Golf shaft epoxy for 21 years and use it in all of my classes. Never a failure. Why change when it works so well. (Doug Hall)

Thanks for the reply, Ron; but when I have asked at the local pro-shop, it seems they just use any old epoxy they can get their hands on.

I just thought this G-flex product might be better, possibly. (Peter McKean)

Two items you need to consider:

Epoxy needs a bit of clearance, a snug tight fit is counter productive to good results
Not all Epoxy is compatible with copper based alloys such as the NS ferrules. I would call the manufacturer and ask.

Offhand it appears the Epoxy's with strong odor, somewhat a vinegar smell, are likely to be incompatible. (Jed Dempsey)

Just to stir the pot a little, I’ve used Pliobond for years. No failures whatsoever. (Paul Julius)

I have never used anything but this. (Joe Arguello)

Like Joe, I use U40 Rodbond when I use metal ferrules. (JW Healy)

I use shafting epoxy from Golfsmith. I have never had a failure yet. (Bret Reiter)

I use Clubmaker 30/60 Shafting Epoxy from Golfsmith. I've never had an issue with it. (Mike Arnold)

I’ve always used U40 rod bond for years and have never had a failure. Easy to work with and lasts forever in an air tight container. (Scott Bahn)

Here's what I think is the best article on surface prep for gluing ferrules.

Most people make the mistake of using too rough an abrasion on the surface which actually makes a poorer bond than if did nothing except clean the surface. If I use the above method, I cannot use epoxy to bond ferrules because it works so well that if they get damaged they are impossible to remove using heat without total destroying the underlying cane. I use glue called StiknSeal which has an excellent bond but easily removed with moderate heat. (Ken Paterson)

http://www.adhesive.com/instructions_detail_surfaceprep__adhesives_application.html (Harry Boyd)

Thanks, Harry; very useful, especially the bit on surface abrasion! (Peter McKean)

I use Accraglass Green and have never had a failure... I've only made about 17 rods. (Rick Crenshaw)

OK, seventeen out of seventeen is a bloody good average!

Thanks for your input. (Peter McKean)

And you are weakening your epoxy joint by putting that groove on each of your flats, and actually leaving flats. Both surfaces of the joint to be mated should actually do that - mate with a very thing gap between the two surfaces. Excess epoxy does not strengthen the joint, it weakens it. (Mark Wendt)