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I use CR-591 for gluing up my rods that I purchase from Golden Witch. I have found this glue to be excellent for strength and cleanup. I have finally tracked down a spec sheet for the material from Borden Chemical. Storage life of the product was my concern, as I store my glue in a refrigerator (about 40 degrees F) when not in use and bring it to room temperature before mixing and gluing. I plan to run some of my own glue up tests on older "expired" stored glue over the holiday to see how well it stores at lower temperatures. The Borden spec data provides data only for 70 and 90 degrees F, but I also got information from one of their tech reps on lower temperatures. Here is the data I got for your info if you use this adhesive. I will share the actual glue up data next year when it is done from the tests I will do. Storage Life(months)/Temperature(oF) 2 / 90; 3 / 70; 6 / 50; 10 / 40; The lower temperatures are not verified by Borden by test, but only production and distribution (as I understand it). I have drawn up a curve of Storage Temp vs. Storage Life for my use with this adhesive. (Frank Paul) I recently tried this glue, too. What Frank says about it is right, It's a good glue for our purpose. Let me pass along a cautionary tale as well, however. This is the stickiest glue I have ever worked with. Keep a bucket of water and a towel handy, or your fingers will stick themselves together. It's hard to tie knots when your fingers stick together. Be careful what you use for a drive belt in your binder if you use a Garrison type or my string binder. I was out of the 80# Dacron I recommend, and used a heavier braided mason's line. I have used it with Epon in the past with no problem, but once some of this glue got on it, it wanted to stick to the blank, and really gummed up the normally smooth operation of the machine. I got through it, but was swearing I would never touch the stuff again. I changed my mind later, when the glue dried. What I glued up was an 8 foot spiral rod. The biggest one I ever tried. It took a lot of force to twist the spiral into the butt section, and I wondered if the section would significantly unwind when released. I found that this glue held a tighter spiral than anything I have used before, including URAC, which is the next best stuff. It also dried very hard, and I suspect rods glued with it will be a bit faster because of that. Anyway, I think I would have been OK with the thin Dacron drive belt, but the next time I use this glue I'm going to have some extra drive belts standing by just in case. I guess this makes a good argument for the 4 string type of binder as well. (Tom Smithwick) You are right about the adhesives "stickiness." I keep a bucket of water under my binder and have the drive rope (??) run through the water. I also wear elastic gloves and I stick my hands/fingers in the bucket of water all the time to keep them from sticking together - this works real well. The binder cleans up with water, as does the outside of the bound rod - of course do it right away. I was able to make up a batch of this glue and take about an hour to glue up a butt and two tip sections without any problems with over hardening of the adhesive. The sections came out very straight after rolling them on my work table and drying for 2 to 3 days. Just my experience. (Frank Paul) A dozen or so years ago when I was trying (unsuccessfully) to find a Canadian source of URAC 185, somebody suggested I try Bordens L100. I phoned Bordens and they were very helpful and put me in touch with one of their technical people. The Borden equivalent was CR100 usually sold by the barrel or tank car. The tech guy initially sent me a "sample" gallon, but this was awkward for him, so after a couple of years he found an industrial plywood manufacturing firm that was willing to sell me a small amount. The plywood manufacturer coats the veneers with resin, then cures them under pressure at approximately 200F in a large platen press. After 4 minutes they are cured. I thought, why not do the same with the bamboo, so I now cure all my sections in my oven starting at 200F and leaving them in until the oven has cooled to room temperature. After 1 or 2 hours I find I can strip the binding cord, scrape and sand. I leave any straightening until after 24 hours. Another thing I learned from the tech guys, both Borden and URAC, was that for every 10 degree drop in storage temperature the shelf life doubled, so at 40F the resin is good for 2 years. The test is to look for "lumps" in the resin. If lumpy, throw it away, if not, keep on using it. I have use my resin up to about 18 months safely and with no problems in either its use, or its function. I keep my drive belts wet in use and store them in a quart jar of water when not needed. (Ted Knott) We have used this for many years up in Canada thanks to Ted. The only issue is have had with it is that periodically, I had some issues with delaminations. It drove me crazy. It was not just the L-100, but also Resorcinol. The culprit was dryness in my workshop and I think this was caused by these new high efficiency furnaces. After a while, I installed a humidifier and that helped a lot, but the best tip came from John Zimny and he told me to mist the strips and hour or two before applying the glue. The reason, if memory serves me correctly is that if there is not sufficient humidity in the rod, the glue requires moisture and when curing will actually suck the moisture that is in the strips out of them, creating a brittle joint. I hope that makes some sense. After I started misting my strips, problem went away. I then baked the strips like Ted suggested and problem solved. Don't ask how much water I put on them. I sometimes spray, and sometimes take a damp sponge and wet the strips. I do it about 2 hours before I start and then just before I spread the glue. Also keep a bowl of water handy to wet your fingers this stuff is sticky. (Mark Babiy) Echoing Marks comments about dryness and the strips, make sure you use enough glue to keep it wet before you bind them. Do not spare the glue with a one pass is enough thought process. I brush it on several times before picking up the strips and binding them to insure the strips have wet glue everywhere. (Gordon Koppin) Thanks for your response to my email on CR-591. My shop stays in the 60-70 percent humidity most of the year. When I am working there I keep a propane unvented heater going in the winter and that helps to keep the humidity up with the water vapor from the combustion products (yep, I also keep my door cracked into the garage to make sure there is enough oxygen for combustion - have had no problems in two years). The spec sheet for CR-591 indicated that it was used for gluing edges of wood materials and heat set with a hot pattern under pressure at about 325 degrees F. Ted and Mark, I like your idea of heat setting the glued up strips in my oven - good suggestion. Thanks also for the suggestion of watching to see if the glue is lumpy. When I am done gluing, I wash my drive belt in water and let it soak and then dry it out and reassemble on my binder after it dries. (Frank Paul) Bordens L100 is not the same as CR591. L100 is virtually identical to Nelsons URAC 185. CR591 is a little thicker, has slightly less working time, shorter shelf life, costs more, dries to a much darker color, and comes with a rather coarse catalyst mixture as compared to URAC 185 / L100. I also think it makes a for a slightly stiffer blank than URAC 185/L100. As an alternative to misting strips you can mix in a small amount of water to the mix. 2.5cc to 1 ounce of resin works well. Mix the resin and catalyst first, then add water and let sit for 5 minutes, then remix. Also URAC 185 (Not CR591!!) is great for gluing cork and reel seat fillers. It dries the same color as cork, doesn't leave ridges over time, cleans up easy, and fills gaps with strength. (Dave Kenney)
Can you guys help me by giving some of your glue sources and pro's/con's about your choice of glue. Russ @ Golden Witch has stopped supplying CR-591 and that was my favorite. Now I have four rods to make and need glue within the month? (Geremy Hebert) I use Epon 828 and 3140 curing agent that I ordered from Miller-Stephenson. It arrived in a few days. I like it for the long shelf life, pot time and the setup time gives me plenty of time for straightening. I usually let the rods cure hung overnight, wipe down with alcohol, rebind and heat set the glue in my oven for 2 hours at 180 degrees. There is a good discussion of Epon on Todd's site. (Wayne Daley) If you want URAC try the Nelson paint Co. in Michigan. That's where I got my last batch from. It's funny that Russ isn't carrying CR-591 anymore. I had a batch fail that I bought from him about four months ago and lost one butt and four tip sections. I sent the batch back to him with some of the delaminated sections to return to Borden to check out. I used Titebond III on my last rod and was very impressed with the results. No mixing just squirt on the sections right out of the bottle spread with a acid brush and bind. Simple. (Mark Heskett) I think CR-591 is UF? There is a problem with UF glues these days that just seems to be getting worse in that the chemicals being used now are decreasing the shelf life more and more so it's getting they aren't reliable unless you buy large amounts directly from a glue maker, test it before each use and throw out almost all of it because it doesn't last. Was a time it was all I used but had to give up with them entirely in the end due to constant failure of the glue. I've now for better or worse gone to Titebond III and found it seems not unlike UF as far as rod behavior goes. (Tony Young) Thank you all for your response to my request for information on glue. I have worked with both epoxy and UF and I found (I would like some feedback on this topic) that the epoxy glued blanks felt limp and wet when casting. A low return rate. But the UF glued blanks had a crisp return and sharp tight feel. Anyone have a voice of experience on this or was my gluing process in error? I will probably switch to someone's UF formula, but I have someone mention EPON 828, does it cast the same? And Titebond? I'm an old woodworking shop guy, that's OK for rod building? I guess it is because I believe a few of you use it. I have searched archives but so time consuming and this is punch fast so thank you again all. So in summation: Titebond II or III (discuss) and Epoxies (limp or crisp?) (Geremy Hebert) All I know about Titebond glue is that several years ago (this from the original rodmakers list) when people started using it, it seemed some people had good success with it and some didn't. I thought that a little strange. I know nothing about Titebond III. Isn't Titebond an Alphatic glue similar to Elmers Wood glue, or yellow glue? I have actually thought of trying a rod with alphatic glue (yellow glue) like Elmers or something, maybe Titebond. (Martin Jensen)
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