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Finishing - Impregnating

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I could use some help finding a resource.  Do any of you know where I can get a book on impregnating. I am making two 8 ft 7 wt rods for saltwater fishing and wish to build one rod varnished and the other impregnated. both will be hollow built. is there any changes that I should make to the taper if impregnated?  (John Vitella)

I am not aware of any book on impregnating and don't recall if Bob Milward addresses it, but I'll take a shot at a qualitative answer to your question.  I have used impregnation for a few rods.  Depending on the method used there may be an increase in weight of the rod.  The effect of the weight is greater at the tip than at the butt, I suppose because it has a greater range of motion during casting.  That weight tends to slow the rod action, in some respects similarly to using a heavy set of guides.  The impregnating agent may have other effects on the action as well, I don't know.  To account for the weight effect and achieve an action similar to that of a varnished version of the same taper, the taper should be modified to speed the rod up a bit.  How much?  It depends on the amount of weight added.  (Bill Lamberson)

I am preparing to make an Orvis 1 piece. I am considering impregnating it with acetone/Plexiglas.

Where do you get the Plexiglas? Didn't Bob Nunley write this process up in Power Fibers? I looked in the archive as well as Power Fibers and got nothing (unless it is the issue with a password that I can't open).  (Rex Tutor)

Some hardware stores, and most lumber yards sell it in various sizes.   (Martin-Darrell)

Make sure it is Plexiglas.  Home Depot sells Plexiglas and Lowes sells Lexan or something like that and will substitute if you don't emphasize Plexiglas.  The stuff at Lowes won't work.  (Onis Cogburn)

Good point, Onis. Plexiglas is an acrylic, Lexan is a polycarbonate.  (Martin-Darrell)

OK, I found some clear, unlabeled plastic which I believed to be Plexiglas.  I made a syrup of it in acetone, and I'm soaking some wood in it now.  How could I tell if this is actually Lexan?  (Grayson Davis)

Lexan is a lot tougher. The glass place tells me that if you score (try to cut part way through) the Plexiglas will break at the cut much easier.  Lexan is, again, a lot tougher so it is harder to break.  Hope this helps a little.  (Randall Gregory)

You will have a fine time trying to break Lexan. The stuff can be literally bulletproof.  Any plastic you buy for windows should say whether it is acrylic. Acrylics can be readily broken, and dissolve in acetone/MEK. The same cannot be said of polycarbonates, though they are solvent to a lesser degree.  (Martin-Darrell)

If it melted in the Acetone, then it's Plexi. Lexan doesn't cooperate!  (Bob Nunley)

Does anyone have any experience with the resin impregnated rods?   I had found a web site where the builder impregnates his rods and also if I remember will impregnate rods for a price. Comments?  It's bound to make a rod heavier.  (John Silveira)

Impregnating a rod, will change the weight and action of the rod, depending on the impregnation process.

I have a friend who impregnates my blanks for me when I want  a set done, but what he uses, doesn't add any weight or does it change the action of the rod. He spent many years trying different solutions and processes and finally came up with this.

It works very well. The blank is sealed all the way thru right to the center. The rod is impervious to any moisture getting into the rod. I was very impressed when he did a set of blanks for me to test. I wouldn't hesitate to have him do more blanks for me. But, I don't like the "STD" impregnation processes that have been used over the years, with Bakelite resin, etc. They DO add weight and also change the rods action and feel.  (Dave LeClair)

Last weekend I went to an estate auction and bought a 7 foot, 2 piece, 1 tip bamboo rod.  It has no markings on the rod shaft. The rod is fairly dark browntone and has very consistent color. It has a satin finish. When I got it home I measured it and ran the numbers through Hexrod and RodDNA. It's closely matches an Orvis Battenkill.
 
The guides had been re-wrapped and the reel seat had been replaced. Original cork grip. The finish on the wraps are sloppy, varnish all over the rod shaft. The finish on the rod shaft is very smooth. Now, if this guy had refinished the rod when he re-wrapped it, how the hell could he have gotten such a smooth finish on the rod and a sloppy finish on the wraps? Could it have been impregnated? If so, how do you clean off the wrap finish off of the impregnated shaft?
 
I've cleaned varnish off of old rods before and they were really smooth. Could he have taken the old finish off and not recoated it with varnish? How can you tell if an old rod has been impregnated? Would it matter if a coat of varnish is applied over impregnation? Just to be sure the rod has been sealed?  (David Dziadosz)

I would not varnish the rod over the impregnation. Just polish it up after removing the bad wraps and redo the guide wraps.  (Gordon Koppin)

When I got it home I measured it and ran the numbers through Hexrod and RodDNA. It's closely matches an Orvis Battenkill.

It sounds like an Orvis kit rod, and that what you are looking at is an amateur finish. The ferrules should tell you if it's Orvis or not.  If it is, the rod is impregnated. Put a drop of water on it and see if it soaks in. You should be able to get the wraps off by cutting into them on top of the guide feet and pulling off the guides, then peeling off the remaining thread. Try to pop off any remaining varnish residue with a fingernail or a plastic scraper, if you have to, use a varnish remover and ultra-fine steel wool.  (Tom Smithwick)

Where might find some photos or information about the ferrules and or the guides/wraps? Will the varnish remover damage the impregnation?  (David Dziadosz)

I don't think the varnish remover will hurt the impregnation, but don't leave it on any longer than you have too. This photo is what an authentic Orvis finish should look like, and the male ferrules. If you have a TU magazine around, they usually have a full length photo of an Orvis rod scrolling over the conservation projects section. This is all I have.  (Tom Smithwick)

Any idea what shade of silk thread and finish they used? How about guide spacing? Or would it matter since it's already been taken away from original condition?  (David Dziadosz)

I bought a bamboo rod book a few years ago and tucked in the pages was a pamphlet on building Orvis bamboo rod kits with guide spacing for all the rod kits. I'll dig it up and report back.  (Ken Paterson)

It might have been an Orvis kit rod.  One way you might be able to tell if it is impregnated is to put it in a tube in the sun for an hour or so then smell open end. You can varnish either way.  (Scott Grady)

I've been looking at the tips area and talk about impregnation.  Much of the information mentions Plexiglas, Mike's sauce, Bakelite, wood hardeners..  Another newbie builder I talked to was using varnish, soaking the blank for quite a long time.  Does anyone have experience with this?  I use Helmsman spar urethane for dipping.  I like the idea of varnish in the blank interstitial area instead of water re-equilibrating over time.  Maybe this is pie-in-the-sky thinking.  (Dave Kemp)

Mike's impregnating solution is basically a good spar varnish diluted in a waterproofing sealer (Vegetable Oil/Uralkyd/Petroleum Solvent Mixture) and mineral spirits. He suggests that 1-4 days will give varying degrees of penetration and it takes a couple months to dry on its own or you can kick it by heating at 200 degrees "for a day or so". I have a file of his comments that I can send you.  (Larry Puckett)

Hands down, the best impregnant I've ever used was a Flood product called Deks Olje.  It was a marine wood treatment.  Unfortunately, Flood has discontinued their entire Marine Line.  There were two parts to Deks Olje, one was this rub on treatment, and the other a varnish to finish on top of the treatment for appearance.  Too bad... this was great stuff.  It was much like the sauce Larry was talking about that Mike Brooks puts out.  It had tung oil, boiled linseed oil, pine tar and various solvents in it and it was very thin in nature.  I used to put rods in it for 8 days then let them dry for 8 days.  I'm sure there's something else like it on the market, but I don't know what it would be.

Now I'm using a tile and stone sealer that's basically an acrylic polymer.  I like it, but not as much as I did the Deks Olje.  It does, however, do a great job and comes out to a very nice matte finish with 0000 steel wool.  I think Hal Bacon recommended somewhere on the tips site a Tile Sealer that he used.  (Bob Nunley)

First, thanks for the information on Deks Olje. I have been using Nelsonite and then rubbing on Tru-Oil, but I want to try something that will do it all in one step. Putting a rod in for 8 days seems easy enough. When you say you then let it dry for 8 days, do you dry it at normal temperatures or do you use a heat cabinet or oven? Do you heat "kick" it like you do with the tile and stone sealer you have been using? Thanks again for letting us all pick your brain a bit. (Hal Manas)

Hal, with the Deks Olje, I just let it air dry in my varnish room. I keep it between 70 and 75 degrees and do not kick it at the end of the 8 days with an oven. It's plenty dry after 8 days to build the rest of the rod around.  (Bob Nunley)

Deks Olje is made by Owatrol, in France I believe.  It is what I use when someone wants an almost matt finish rod and it has stood up well after several years use, I only use the D1.  In the UK it is readily available in chandlers as it is sold for marine use.

There is a US distributor. (Gary Marshall)

Couple of questions about the stone/ tile sealer and your methods (if you don't mind):
 
Just soak the blank in a PVC tube like you were soaking strips?
 
Apply your final finish as usual?
 
Think the solvent in the sealer would affect Titebond III?  I am making the change to URAC 185, so it may be a non-issue in the future.  (Pete Emmel)

On the tile sealer, no pressurization needed.  Just a soak.  I've heard that some soak overnight and it gets deep enough to protect the rod, but I soak for 3 days... get total penetration.  I take the rods out, let it set for 3 days then just to be on the safe side, I put it in the oven at 250 degrees for a few hours (usually from whatever time I get in the shop until I go to lunch, so 4 or 5 hours) and it's completely cured... all the way to the core.  (Bob Nunley)

That may be at YOUR rate - how fast does it turn over if you're doing only half a doz a year?? I've lost more varnishes and glues to time than to use. Lifetime more like Urac or more like Epon??  (Art Port)

Didn't you try to pressurize Spar varnish in a tube for impregnating a couple of years ago?

Seems I read that somewhere...
 
What about the water seal product used for concrete and wood? Sounds like what you are talking about. Does it need to be under some pressure?  (Gordon Koppin)

Gordon, Yeah, that pressurizing thing didn't work out too well! LOL (Bob Nunley)

Is this what you're referring to?  (Henry Mitchell)

Sure looks like what I used on my tiller and bowsprit when I built my boat.  Flood was distributing it back then.  As for cost, have you priced marine finishes lately?  (Neil Savage)

Thanks for the new source on Deks Olje.  Great stuff and as for the pricey part... well, a quart will probably impregnate 50 or so rods... not so high to buy when you think of it that way.  (Bob Nunley)

Do you have a preference for tile sealer over the Deks Olje?  (Henry Mitchell)

Even though it's not as easy to use, I prefer Deks Olje.  The tile sealer works great, but like I said, the Deks Olje is hands down the best.  I just had no idea it was available from anywhere after Flood dropped it from their line.  I will order a gallon next week.

As for the Tile Sealer, what I used was called TileLab Gloss Sealer and Finish 3 days soak then a 3 day set and a 4 or 5 hour pop in the oven at the end and the rods are ready to wrap.

Answering some questions that came up yesterday;

I do not finish as usual over the TileLab (or Deks either for that matter).  Impregnating replaces varnish.  As a matter of fact, for functionality, impregnating is the way to go.

Pressurization or heat are not required with either product... just a soak in a PVC tube, let it dry then polish it out with 0000 steel wool.  You may then, if you just like them shinier, buff them out with Finesse It or some other kind of polish, but I just prefer to hit mine with 0000.

I don't know how these products would act with Titebond or any glue other than URAC.  I do know that neither of them will hurt the bond that you get with URAC, but Titebond, I'm just not sure.  I'd suggest taking one of your cut offs from a rod, soak it in whatever you want to try to impregnate with and see how it holds up to the chemicals.

"What other things can I use?"   Well, you can use anything that will dry in a reasonable amount of time.  When you are choosing an impregnant, there are several considerations you have to make... Does it keep the water out of the cane (you aren't going to be varnishing over this, so it had better)?  Does it dry in a reasonable amount of time?  Some varnishes and Polys take days, some take weeks, some take YEARS to completely cure.  Anything with a really high Tung Oil or raw linseed oil content... well, that's going to take years, especially if it's deep down inside the cane where it can't get to oxygen.  You don't want something that's going to stay liquid inside the rod for any appreciable amount of time.

What does it weigh?  Very important.  It's not important to get tech data sheets and know the Specific Gravity of your "soup"... simple test.  Choose your poison.  Put some in a cup.  Weigh a piece of scrap bamboo on a digital scale that has decent resolution (Hey, it's 49 bucks at Staples and if you use URAC, you darn sure better own one anyways).  Soak in your soup long enough to make sure it's soaked all the way to the core. (3 days with TileLab, 8 or so with Deks Olje, I don't know how long with normal Poly's because I had a bad experience with that one time and I will never... well, read the book). Take it out, give it a week or so to dry.  Weigh it again.  Did it gain any weight?  If so, calculate the percentage of weight gain.  MAKE A NOTE.  Now, take a piece about the same size, weigh it, and varnish it as usually... use the same speed and same number of coats you normally would.  Let it dry then weigh it.  What percentage weight gain did you get with the varnish.  Now compare your impregnated piece's percent of weight gain to the varnished piece's percent of weight gain.  Are they comparable?  Is your soup too heavy?  You don't want something that will weigh significantly more than normal varnish.  You want something that gives you protection WITHOUT adding weight.  Remember, our tapers are based on stresses at certain points along a beam.  If we change the weight of the beam, we change the casting characteristics, so, just for those who want to try it, be warned that Phenol Formaldehyde Resins (commonly known as Phenolic Resins) weigh significantly more than three coats of varnish; however, they are absolutely waterproof, chemical proof.

So that brings on the next thing to consider.  How water proof is my "soup"?  Easy to figure out.  Again, take scrap sections (use the impregnated and varnished sections you used to test for weight gain) and soak each of them in a cup of water overnight.  Take them out, dry them, then weigh them on your digital scale.  Were there weight gains?  What was the percentage of weight gain?  Did the impregnated piece gain more or less weight than the varnished piece?  Did it gain ANY weight at all?

In the end, you need something that is chemical and water proof, that adds an amount of weight comparable to your varnish, that does not react adversely with your adhesive, that LOOKS GOOD when buffed out and that keeps water out of the bamboo, even in extreme situations (soaking overnight is extreme enough).

Have fun and trust me... do NOT try impregnating in a 200PSI vessel, using a low pressure sewer cleanout cap to seal it off.  They are NOT capable of holding more than about 35 psi... trust me on this one! (Bob Nunley)

I’ve used Deks Olje with nodeless rods – same protocol as Bob – and not had any problem with the varnish affecting scarfs glued with Titebond II.  (Bill Lamberson)

Do you think that the Deks Olje would be compatible with hollow building?  I was wondering if it would gather in the hollows and not easily get out again.  I do like Deks Olje.  I used it on my sailboat for years.  (Dick Green)

I have used it on several hollow built rods without any concerns.  The oil wicks into fine pores in the cane it does not pour through into the hollow cavities.  On the occasions where I have managed to get more oil into the cane than it really wants I've found that it bleeds out over the next few days and can be wiped off.

Your concern may be realized if pressure is used but I have never been tempted to try that.  Bobs suggestion of getting to understand the weight gain is equally applicable here.  Once you understand the gain for a solid section you can estimate what is expected for your hollow rod and it would be pretty obvious if the voids filled up.

If still nervous just test a short hollow section, soak it, dry it and saw it in half!  (Gary Marshall)

I've heated my Helmsman to 200F and dipped my blanks and then pressurized at 200psi for 24 hours and it seemed to work pretty good but now I just thin Waterlox 50/50 with acetone and keep applying it with a brush until it stops soaking in and let it dry normally. Either way I still finish as per normal with 3 coats of high gloss water based Varathane.  (Ken Paterson)

I am in the process of working on my first rod and have an interest in using Deks Olje. This type of finish from what I am reading from others sounds like perhaps would give a somewhat vintage look, and that is what I am after. My question is, what would I use as a finish over the wrap thread at various locations on the rod (snake guides, ferrules, tip top and cork area) etc.? And for clarification to be sure I am understanding this process correctly. When I use Deks Olje this serves as the protective coating or finish coat and nothing is applied over the Deks Olje. Is this correct? I have used URAC in my gluing process and found it very nice to work with. Any help that anyone can provide would sure be appreciated. I have just recently found this Goldrush forum and signed up. Although much of the technical information being discussed is over my head I have already learned so much that will save me time and headaches.   (Bill Gates)

You're correct in your assumptions about the final finish qualities of Deks Olje. You may finish the thread with whatever makes you most comfortable. I would suggest Minwax Helmsman Spar Urethane as one good thread finish over impregnated rods.  (Harry Boyd)

Where can you order this stuff from?  (Phil Crangi)

Here's one place.  (David Van Burgel)

Didn't Bob say he uses the # 1?  It's on the same page, but the big display is for # 2.  (Neil Savage)

Owatrol's website indicates the #2 is to be used after application of #1.  (Gary Young)

True enough, but my recollection (and I admit my memory isn't what it was 50 or so years ago) was that Bob only used # 1.  (Neil Savage)

Way back in the memory banks I seem to recall that a product by Daly's called Benite was a good soup to soak rods in. It is a penetrating sealer/hardener for wood. Does anyone else remember that? Its a lot easier to get and way less in the cost department than Deks.  (Larry Lohkamp)

If anyone remembers, Terry Ackland had a solution for impregnating that made them totally waterproof and scratch-resistant, penetrated the whole of the cane right to the core, did not require any vacuum or pressure, added zero weight to the rod and could be polished to any finish you required.

Unfortunately, he never passed on the formula, as it was his secret, he said.  He planned to use it on the affordable everyman's bamboo rods with which he was going to flood the market, thereby freeing the average angler from the wiles, machinations and greed of bloated capitalist rodmakers!

I daresay George Gehrke, the "Bamboo Bastard" probably had something similar in his armamentarium.

Anybody know what happened to Terry? (Peter McKean)

In October 2004 I received an email from Terry Ackland referring to some tests I had done in February 2000 and which were published in The Planing Form. That test was recently posted here. Terry wanted some of my sample pieces to impregnate and return to me for a second testing. That was done and I found little difference in the stiffness or weight of the sample strips, but the impregnating was impressive. He didn't share the formula but mentioned that vacuum and heat was involved. I still have the samples and would like to know how he did it. (Ron Grantham)

Has anyone used the Benite for impregnating a rod?  What did you think of it?  Did you top coat with a spar varnish or just buff it up with 000 steel wool?  I'm interested in finding an impregnating dip that does not involve heat or pressure and right now Deks Olje sounds pretty easy to fit into my routine.  That said Daly's has a store about a 15 minute drive from my house.  (Mike McGuire)

Bob Nunley said he currently uses TileLab Gloss Sealer and Finish. Home Depot sells this stuff for $10.97 per qt. I have not used it but am going to try it on a few old sections that didn't turn out too well and see how it works.  (Jim Healy)

In the thread on impregnating, a question arose on the effects on Titebond. I have built all my rods with Titebond (mostly II Extended). I work on the premise that I have at least 4 coats of varnish and no one is going to let their rod set in the stream for more than a few seconds. The only experience with immersion is that I had a rod built with Titebond II Extended  immersed in a stream for approximately 5 months and it delaminated. It sets over my bench as it was my sons Christmas present one year. Also in that event was a $800 camera and $600 lens all a total lose.  Do not ask about insurance with a college student involved.

If I can find a piece built with Titebond I'll set it in water and run some length test. Being retired what else do I have to do.  (Jim Tefft)

After some asked what would the impregnating goop do to a rod built with Titebond?  I did a quick test.

I built a small test piece with Titebond II extended, scrapped off the rind and soaked it for a couple of days in plain water. Results is, I do not recommend soaking a rod in impregnating solution if your using Titebond.  (Jim Tefft)

Soaking the section in water was not a valid test for this question - nobody impregnates their rods with water. Dried glues are variably affected by the impregnating solvent. Since water has different properties than impregnating solutions, the test results can't be extrapolated to an impregnating solution.  The test would be valid only if the section was soaked in the desired impregnation bath, at the desired pressure, temperature, etc.

That being said, it would not be a surprise if the titebond reacted negatively to a different solvent.  (John Rupp)

I've impregnated many nodeless rods which had scarfs glued with Titebond II and using a three-day soak in Deks Olje as the impregnating solution with no problems with the scarf joints.  (Bill Lamberson)