My MoW varnish needs to be replaced and I'm trying to figure what I want to replace it with, any suggestions?  (Tim Stoltz)

Why aren't you satisfied with the MOW, it's supposed to be one of the better choices.  (Larry Puckett)

Question on this, are there any draw backs to using "Polyurethane" varnishes?  (Jimi Genzling)

I have several rods here with polyurethane varnish which are well, well, over 20 years old,  they look just like they did when i made them.  As a tip, try using genuine turpentine as a thinner, if nothing else it smells better!  (Robin Haywood)

I know you asked Tim, but I switched about a year ago.  For an unknown reason the MoW would give me a zippered finish in places.  The zipper is what I call an area of the varnish that forms small dips and peaks with sharp edges that are chained together - this didn’t happen over the entire rod, just certain flats for random lengths.  It was enough of a problem that it made me switch to P&L 61.  (Kyle Druey)

Try Interlux Schooner or Spitanni.  Spitanni is from Italy and is super high quality.  It is hard to find.  Check out Wooden Boat magazine and you will see references to it.  Interlux Schooner is very high quality and has the smell and look of varnishes before the EPA regulations.  It may be tinted if you want it darker, but it has good color as stock.   I get mine at Marine Hardware stores.

The only Man-O-War that I have liked happened to be a stuff called Boat-Cote -- I think that's how they spelled coat.  Anyway, this stuff was dark, cane in gallons only as far as I could tell, and skinned over in the tube faster than anything I have ever used.  But it smelled right and was dark. It took forever to dry, but it really made wraps go transparent if you wanted them to.

A little history lesson.  The Clean Air Act that forced paint and varnish companies (and car manufacturers, etc., etc.) to change the way they make things was signed by President Johnson in 1967 or 1968.  Varnishes ceased being what they were in the "old days" by the time the Clean Air Act Standards came into place in the early 1970's.  The recent changes to varnish formulae are only modifications  on modifications on modifications.

If you really want a thrill, order some copal chunks from a fine art supply store and make your own old-fashioned copal varnish.  See Google.  (Chris Lucker)

I took Chris' advice sometime back and switched to schooner. It's all he says. I like it very much and have recommended it to others. I am still on the look out for Spitanni though!  (Mike Shay)

This is a question for my fellow antipodeans on the list:

Is there a brand of spar you are using on your rods and blanks that you would particularly recommend?  (Nick Kingston)

I have been using Schooner from "International", which you should be able to get from any marine supplier. I know Peter McKean uses Goldspar, also from the same company, and his rods are finished flawlessly.  (Nick Taransky)

Yes, the Interlux Schooner or Interlux Original is great stuff. I buy the Original because (unlike the Schooner) it has a sticker that says it is not for sale in California. In my opinion, that must make it better. How's that for logic?  (Bob Maulucci)

That's good logic. California enacted laws on how much Volatile Organic Compounds (VOCs) paints and varnishes can give off - reduced them of course, so to be sold in this state they had to be reformulated. In every case I've seen, the reformulation was worse. I'm hoping that given enough time and research from the paint companies the reformulated stuff will catch up to the way they used to be.  (Darryl Hayashida)

I've used Feast Watson without any problems so far.  Not sure where it's made, but it's readily available here in Perth.  (Mike Roberts)

I need some advice regarding which finish to ultimately utilize in my drip tube. Helmsman and Ace Hardware Spar are readily available locally, but finishes such as MOW, Pratt & Lambert #61, Schooner, Last and Last Marine, etc. that seem to be mentioned are not. Also, my understanding is government regulations resulted in new improved formulas for MOW and Helmsman resulting in less than desirable results without the addition of solvents. Any advice regarding what to use would be greatly appreciated.  (Ron Delesky)

I purchased and then disposed of the "new improved" version of Helmsman a couple of months ago. Could not make it work and had to strip it from the rod sections and start over. I then purchased the Ace Hardware house brand and have had good success with it. I must say my experience is limited to two rods with the Ace, but I like it so far.  (Steve Shelton)

The new version of Helmsman did not adhere to the blank in all places. The coating was uneven, and there were actually some uncoated areas. Almost as though the blank was contaminated. That is a possibility I suppose, but I have never had a similar problem. The blank was washed with denatured alcohol prior to dipping. In short, I did nothing different from my previous routine. I cannot recall what thinning agents I used or in what amounts. Probably in the area of 15% turpentine. Guess I really should write that stuff down and keep it available.

I tried dipping with the stuff at least three times, varied the temperature of the varnish from 75 to 100 degrees. As I recall the results were worse at the higher temps. I also got some runs (slight) at the lower temps, therefore I tried the higher temps. No more runs but worse coverage at the higher temps.

Removed the varnish from the rod, replaced it with the Ace varnish and got perfect results.  (Steve Shelton)

Oily contamination is the most common reason for coating problems.  Alcohol is NOT a good solvent for most oils so you are better off with mineral spirits or lacquer thinner, in that order.  (Al Baldauski)

I've used the Ace House Brand Spar Varnish, very comparable to MOW...

Matter of fact I would not be surprised if came from the MOW plant...

I thin 5% Mineral Sprits & 10% Penetrol... (Dave Collyer)

I've used almost the same identical regimen with Ace Hardware brand Spar for 25-30 rods, but I substitute VM&P Naphtha for the mineral  spirits.   I  guess  if  it works in arid Colorado, and also in near-tropical Louisiana, it must be fairly versatile.  (Harry Boyd)

I used to be in the paint business, and I can assure you that most varnishes  of the same resin in a given price range are virtually identical.  There are differences between different resin bases for varnished and those differences are important.  (Ralph Moon)

I am using MOW spar now and it dries really slowly but it is easy to fix little "bad spots" with. I have used in the past with success Fred Meyer brand polyurethane, Prat & Lambert R10 Varmor Gloss (not sure what the  #61 is). All the Poly's I have used have worked great. They dry quick, usually to the touch in just a few hours. The seem to be harder to clean up little bad spots. Poly doesn't seem to feather in as well as spar, you have to be really careful when sanding little imperfections out, but you can work on them quicker because the stuff dries so quickly.

So to recap:

I'm gonna do the next few rods with MOW then switch back to Poly. Overall I like the Poly.  The finish is great, lasts a long time, dries quick, I have figured out how to work on imperfections. I don't get too many imperfections anyway (maybe because it dries so quickly).

My first few rods were spar and when I built a new dip tube I filled it with MOW. The old one had Poly R10 in it. it was just time for a change and since both Poly and Spar are accepted finishes widely in use it would work just fine either way.  (Martin Jensen)

I'm looking for recommendation for varnish.  (William Vincent)

I've had good luck with Helmsman by Minwax, McCloskey’s Man O War, Pratt & Lambert 61, and for wipe-on: Minwax Tung Oil Finish.   All can be used for blanks or wraps but the wipe-on types will require many coats if you want to build up the finish on the wraps-but it will penetrate the threads very nicely for the first coat or two.  There are many more available and most work well and some makers are very opinionated  about what they feel is the best and how it should be applied...I drip.  (Brian Smith)

I use Helmsman off the shelf at Walmart.  (Tony Spezio)

Recently, I've switched from Man-o-War to "Last-N-Last."  I cut it with approximately 15% mineral spirits and a quarter cup of Penetrol. 

After the guides are wrapped & varnished...I varnish the rod using the dip tube method (at 75 degree room temp).  I rig a 7 rpm motor with a 1/8" dowel ...and 10-lb test braided Dacron line to eliminate twisting.  As the line wraps around the 1/8" dowel, the rod is lifted quite slowly from the tube/varnish.  The results are very good...and no drips/sags! Usually 3 coats does the trick. The Last-N-Last polishes out nicely too.   (Bernie Elser)

Last 'n Last.  (Mark Wendt)

Yeah, but what do you recommend for shop floors???  (Todd Talsma)

Minwax Helmsman PolyU.  Leaves a wunnerful finish that's easy to sweep and keep clean...(Mark Wendt)

Whew, thank goodness. L 'n L is pretty expensive to use as a cement sealer!  (Larry Blan)

This can be a confusing subject, indeed, due to the fact that many manufacturers don't list their ingredients but merely imply them on the labels nowadays.  Some of the best advice I've gotten here is to purchase a copy of Bob Flexner's book Understanding Wood Finishing, cheap and readily available through book sellers and/or wood working companies.  It also has a good chapter on card scrapers (May God Bless George Barnes and the humble Cod Scrapa).

Basically, Bill, your choice is between a Polyurethane resin type or the more traditional Phenyl/Alkyd resin types of varnish.  Helmsman is PU and most of the rest are generally some blend of phenyl/alkyd.(as far as the type resin is concerned)  PU is generally regarded  as  more  durable  but  less  flexible  and vice-versa for p/a, though both produce an outstanding finish.  Then there are the matters of the type of oil and type of thinner and various combinations thereof.......

At this point might it just be best to go with whatever good Spar is available locally and delve into the mystifying world of varnish while you're snow bound.  Hope this helps.  (Darrol Groth)

Minwax Helmsman Gloss thinned 25% with Naphtha off the shelf @ Home Depot.  Pulled from the dip tube @ 1"/minute. Good for rods & shop floor. Thinned and pulled this slow, you don't have to wait at guides but need more coats. Applied on the shop floor, it's more like "Swoosh" and spread with a squeegee. :>)  (Don Schneider)

Yes, and it makes a wonderful surface for ice skating too...(Mark Wendt)

Is Naphtha better than Mineral Spirits?  (Tony Spezio)

I think it is but that's just my opinion. It seems to mix well and doesn't separate with time.

The reason I use gloss varnish instead of semigloss is semigloss has some kind of particles suspended in it that will settle out with time if you don't stir it up before each use.

My dip tube setup is a little different than most. It's a 2" tube inside a 6" tube with heated air circulating between the tubes maintaining varnish temp 75°F to 80°F. It also has a sealing cap/plug that takes all the air out of the 2" tube went not in use. If there is some interest on the list, I'll take some pictures and do a write-up for Todd to post if he doesn't mind.  (Don Schneider)

I seem to have a problem with the varnish jelling in the can after a few months even though I use it often. I drain back in the can and store it that way. I make sure the can is full to the top by adding a bit of Mineral Spirits. In spite of this it still jells. The old cans say to thin with Mineral Spirits but the "New Improved" says not to thin it. I wonder if the varnish is absorbing oxygen when it is draining and exposed to the ambient air. I think you keep your varnish in the tube. I have mentioned this before, I heat my room to 80 degrees F for a full day or two before I varnish. Everything I will use including the rod is in the room so it is at the same temp. I also use Helmsman Gloss, mainly because it is about all I can here in my rural area.

I am pleased with it though I have used the Semi Gloss on my personal rods but have gone away from using it. (Tony Spezio)

I've often wondered about the multiple contacts with oxygen you get with drip tubes. That’s why cut a hole in my basement floor so I could have a dip system. I use Helmsman gloss straight out of the can and draw at near 4" a minute. I put the dip tube into my heated drying cabinet the day before and heat the varnish to 85 or 90 before dipping. I also fill any space in the tube with inert gas before storing. No problems so far and it's been in there for better than  a year now.  (Tom Key)

I wonder where we can get inert gas from in convenient cans this side of the Atlantic?  (Robin Haywood)

They sell propane canisters in England don't they? The hand held ones that are used for small torches in the use of doing things like soldering copper plumbing pipe. You can just let some of that shoot into the tube. Any gas that's heavier than air will work.  (Will Price)

I am stupid.

Some time ago Luke said to use butane, but I couldn't think how to squirt it, it has suddenly come to me that you just use the blow torch unlit..................

Not so much fun though.  (Robin Haywood)

Please, use propane and not butane.

Propane is NOT used on boats for the same reason it should be used for varnish containers: It is heavy and sinks - in a boat butane is used because it is light and so if there is a leak it won't collect in the bilge waiting for a chance to explode the way propane would. Regardless, smoke your cigars up on deck.  (Henry Mitchell)

I am doubly stupid, many thanks!  (Robin Haywood)

You can also use vinegar and baking soda.  Mix a bit of each in a container like a milk jug and then "pour" the heavier than air gas out of the container into your paint can or dip tube being very careful not to pour any of the liquid into the varnish.  Please don't ask me how I know that this can happen.  (Hal Manas)

I was doing this for a while but I had a visitor in the shop one morning when I went thru the motions of pouring nothing from the jug and I felt like Amos and Andy buying invisible glass.    (Timothy Troester)

The trouble is that with me it jolly well would happen, some animal or other would conspire to jog my arm or something.

Would someone whose chemistry didn't end in 1964 please tell us which gas is produced?  (Robin Haywood)

CO2.  (Steve Weiss)

I had the same skimming problem before I started using Naphtha. Yes I leave the varnish in the dip tube capped by the plug I made that eliminates the air when not in use.

When using I keep the varnish in the tube at 70°F-80°F, otherwise it is whatever the temp is in the shop. Hang the sections in a 75°F drying cabinet. With the thinness of the coats by the time I get the 5th or 6th section pulled I can start over. I keep this up till I like the look. When done I leave the sections in the cabinet for several days.

The present batch of varnish has been in the tube for a couple of years and shows no sign of skimming or separation. All I've ever done is add more varnish to top off the tube.  I did thin all of the varnish at the same time, fill the tube and store the rest in one of the cans. The can is not full and even with air in the can doesn't show any sign of skimming either. When the top-off can is empty, dump all the varnish and start over with a fresh batch. I don't know what is in Naphtha but it works and the varnish seems to love it.

I don't use semi-gloss because like metal flake it must be stirred/mixed or it separates and whatever they put in it settles to the bottom. This may not be a problem in a drip tube but IMHO not good in a dip tube. Besides, in the Northwest we don't get enough sunshine for reflections to cause a problem.  (Don Schneider)

I don't use semi-gloss because like metal flake it must be stirred/mixed or it separates and whatever they put in it settles to the bottom.

I believe it's talc (like baby powder) that makes the semi-gloss.  You can always rub out the gloss to the degree of shine you want.  (Neil Savage)

I pretty much do as you do only I top off the quart cans with a 1/2 cap full of paint thinner after each application of varnish. I've never had a problem with the varnish and it's two years old. One thing you didn't mention that I do; I heat the varnish to about 100 degrees before pouring it into the drip tube. I really am getting good rod finishes so, I ain't changing a thing, as they say.  (Mark Dyba)

When I went to Don's method of capping the dip tube, the gelling problem stopped. I also switched to Ace Hardware marine spar varnish instead of Helmsman, at the same time.  Same spar varnish is now 3 years in the tube and OK.  The Ace web site says that you have an Ace Hardware store in Mountain Home,  AR. (Paul Franklyn)

Its the exposure to oxygen. I have a can of MOW that is 3-5 years old and still good but I shoot a blast of Bloxygen in it each time I use a little for wraps. However, I take out a couple ounces each time I do wraps and put it in a small glass bottle then immediately shoot a blast of Bloxygen and close the original can to prevent oxygen from getting in. In spite of the fact that I also hit the glass bottle with Bloxygen  it skims over in about 24 hours. Once enough oxygen gets into the mix you can't stop the jelling.  (Larry Puckett)

Suggestion on the little glass bottle. I do the same, but just put on the cap and turn it upside down. The jelling takes place at the bottom of the jar - now of course the top - and when you turn it back up to use the top is OK. When the bottle level gets down too far, just add a bit of turps or naps. When it jells too bad - probably 6 months or more, clean it out and start over on the little bottle. Hope this suggestion helps.  (Frank Paul)

I’ve used Minwax spar for all my rods so far, cut 15% with mineral spirits.  I’ve kept my dip tube topped of with propane and tightly capped.  All had gone well with no skinnig until about the three year point.  Now, nothing prevents a skin from forming quite quickly.  From this behavior, I deduce that from repeated exposure to air during dipping enough oxygen has been absorbed to create a skin despite a protective gas layer.  I guess it’s time for new varnish.  (Al Baldauski)

I use Ace Spar varnish and have got beautiful results. (Jeff Volner)

I was just wondering what type's of varnish people are using? I've seen the SUTHERLAND WELLES LTD Marine Spar Varnish but it seem a little pricey, does anyone know of anything cheaper that works well also?  (Eric Thieman)

I use Helmsman Spar Varnish.  About $24.00 USD a gallon.  Works very well.  (David Gerich)

I use McCloskey's Man O' War Spar Varnish.  About $22.50/gallon (or so).  (Don Peet)

Wow great price….where did you get it? I just received a gallon and I paid $56.30 plus shipping.  (Ren Monllor)

Ace Spar varnish, get it from your local Ace hardware store.  (Larry Puckett)

I'm new to bamboo, I just started a test wrap on my first bamboo blank, a Driggs 2/1.

I'm going with Ace Hardware spar varnish too. Since my blank is impregnated, I'm planning on just varnishing the wraps. On the butt section, where the grip will go, I've wrapped a stripper guide and have applied 2 coats thinned with artist grade turpentine. The Ace I bought was in the quart container and I paid about US $12 I think. 

I carried the test two steps further with two full strength coats of Ace spar over the thinned coats and it looked GREAT. Much nicer than my graphite rods' use of FlexCoat stuff.  (Eric Zamora)

How did you impregnate your blank?  I use Nelsonite on mine, but I follow up with several coats of Tru-Oil before I add the guides and wraps.  I go for transparent wraps and I am still searching for the perfect varnish for this application.  I have not yet tried the thinned epoxy first coat, but I may try that someday.  I have some wipe on Tung Oil finish for the first coat or two on my next rod's wraps.  (Hal Manas)

P.S.  Good choice of rods.  My Driggs River Special is one of my two favorite rods.  I can't decide which is really my favorite - it depends on where I'm fishing, I guess.

On the recommendation of Sir Ratbert Numbley, I've been using Last 'N Last for a couple of years now.  I like it a lot.  (Mark Wendt)

I had a question about what brands of varnish is best or do people prefer. Should it be clear gloss, semi-gloss or high gloss as well?  (Brandon Shepelak)

I use Helmsman Spar Varnish.  Semi Gloss.  Works well.  (David Gerich)

I'm looking to start using a poly varnish & I was wondering if anyone is using any of the Minwax varnishes, whether it be the interior or exterior (Helmsman spar urethane).  Also curious as your experience with any of the current formulations of these varnishes.  (Paul Julius)

I use the Helmsman Spar Urethane in my dip tube and think it gives a great finish. I liked it better before it became "New & Improved" but there is nothing wrong with it now. The original formula was a little darker (amber) than the new version which is almost colorless. I use the clear gloss as opposed to the satin finish.  (Will Price)

I had some problems with a couple of cans I bought several months ago. It was the "new Improved." I had been using the Helmsman for over 8 years and have been satisfied. I think the new stuff has a problem with being thinned with some thinners. I just bought a new can a couple of weeks ago and did one rod with it.  It did give me a real nice finish. I did not do any thinning.  (Tony Spezio)

I like the results that I have been getting with the "new improved" Helmsman. I warm it up to about 90 degrees to 95 degrees before putting it in my drip tube and drain at about 1 1/2" -2" per minute.  The slower you go  the thinner the finish and less chance of runs.  (Don Green)

One more time, Man-o-War Vs Helmsman

1. Gloss? Or semi gloss

2. Some other brand?  (Bill Vincent)

I've used both Man o' War and Helmsman and either one will provide a nice looking and protective finish.  I'm currently using Last 'n' Last Marine and Door Spar Varnish because I heard it's less prone to "pulling off the flats"  (which gives a rounding effect), and it does seem to be better in that regard.

Semi-gloss and satin varnish are essentially gloss varnish that has had silica particles added to it that suppress light refraction, thus giving the effect of a non-glossy finish.  These particles are essentially impurities in the varnish coat that do nothing for it's protectiveness.  If you don’t like a shiny gloss finish, you can rub the final finish down with various polishing compounds to get the degree of shine you want.  Basically, you start with a coarse grit like pumice stone, which gives a flat satin look.  If you follow with finer grits, the finish will become increasingly more glossy.  (Rich Margiotta)

I use Helmsman Gloss. I'm satisfied with the look it gives me, but I've heard so many rodmakers gush over Last and Last, That I'm thinking of giving it a try the next time I change the varnish in the dip tube.  (Will Price)

Are these particles what settles in the bottom of the container, or is there other particulate matter that requires stirring even in gloss varnish? Is there any finish that doesn't require mixing or stirring even if it has sat in the bottom of a dip-tube for three months?  (Henry Mitchell)

The Helmsman gloss requires no stirring and tells you so on the side of the can. The satin and semi-gloss requires stirring. I've never seen any evidence of "settling" in the gloss. Because of the amount of restoration/refinishing I do it seldom sits more than 3-4 weeks between usage. The only thing  do after filling the tube is add a squirt of Bloxygen after every use and once the level drops about an inch I top it off back to the full mark. (Will Price)

Gloss doesn't need stirring, only the other sheen's have particulates in them that need stirring.  (John Channer)

Gloss of any brand as long as it says Spar or Exterior on it.  (John Channer)

Stay away from Satin I drain coat and found the particulates leave a hazy coat on the rod.  (Jim Tefft)

Like 'em both.  I am currently using gloss but I am considering deglossing my rods like I did of old.  (Bret Reiter)